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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2013, 11:23 AM
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Post My intro and summary ....

Hi, my name is Jeannette and I live in central Ontario. While researching info on Divorce proceedings I came across this website and decided to stay.

My brother is going through the first stages of the divorce and I am helping him do all the leg work.

He was forced, and advised by the police, to leave the matrimonial home because the violence towards him, from his wife, was escalating. So April 3,2012 Dan left and moved in with me.

My brother has a permanent disability and receives a small CPP pension each month and up until October 2012 that's all he had to live on. He applied and now receives ODSP which helps a little.

Anyway, he was being represented by a Legal Aid lawyer, however he couldn't understand her so we dropped her. We then retained a lawyer in Kitchener and paid the retainer of $5000 for him to handle this matter.

I need it point out, like most people, we do not have a lot of money, so I secured a second mortgage to help with the finances.

During our initial meeting with the lawyer we made it perfectly clear that Dan needed the following:
- Immediate support payments (his ex works full time plus has her own clients cleaning houses)
- the sale of the matrimonial home
- his car (1986 Buick) he has regular weekly doctor appointments

We also made it clear to the lawyer about our financial situation.

Considering Dan had filed his application and financial statement and his Ex had sent her Replies, the lawyer said that we needed to "answer" her relies. He also said that we could say ourselves money if we did all the leg work instead of him or his law clerk. (His hourly rate is $550 and his clerks rate is $160)

We told him that we were working to the "answers" to both her Application and Financial Statement, and that we would be sending him copies off all the material, including independent evidence, to him in 3 binders.
- one binder for the Application
- one binder for the Financial Statement
- one binder about the history of abuse and other misc information

Dan and I worked steady for 6 weeks compiling all the supporting documents and evidence, then, on September 24, 2012, we sent a full copy of each binder to the lawyer.

We followed up this material with emails requesting the initial requests that Dan needed and what we had talked about at our initial meeting, a motion to be file in court. The lawyer had said that once he had the "Answers" he would go to the Court, which is 2 1/2 hours from where we live, and file a motion.

Well as of the date of this posting, it has cost us $2600.00 (which was paid to the clerk) for correspondence between the two lawyers and Dans lawyer still has not filed anything. Also any "answers" to the ex's correspondence was done by us, with supporting evidence, and then sent by to Dans lawyer to be forwarded.

In early December we tried to speak to the lawyer, we sent emails and left phone messages, but the only thing we found out was that the office was closed until the new year and the lawyer was on holiday until the middle of January.

We called again on January 3 and left mags and then again just after the 15th. Finally on Monday this week the lawyer called me. He was quite annoyed that Dan had been trying to contact him and he wanted to know what the problem was. I explained to him that we wanted to know when he was going to file a motion as per our initial meeting. He told me that we would have to book a "full" day to meet with his clerk and compile the "Answers" to her "Replies", and that we would have to give him a further retainer of $7000 before they could proceed. I tried to point out to him that he already had copies of all the materials and that we wanted him to just get the motion filed.

We are now of the impression that this lawyer doesn't have a clue about what information is sitting in his office or what exactly he is going to do. But he has made it clear he wants more money.

As of this time we are extremely hard up against it. Last Monday I fell and broke my left ankle so I can't work and we have exhausted all the money I had in the bank. Currently we are living on my credit card and I told him that but as he said that was unfortunate, but we would have to attend this meeting in order to proceed.

Stating that Dan and I are extremely fed up and disappointed is putting it mildly.

Apparently we still have about $2000 left on the retainer and I'm of the mind to ask for it and all of our material back.

On the Ex's Financial statement she did not supply full copies of her income tax or other income. We have asked repeatedly but she just simply ignores it. She is also playing the "poor me" card and refuses to provide other information. There is also the matter of GIC's worth $140,000, which are in both her name and Dans, that she has cashed and never noted on her financial statements, plus a few other things.

I am seriously considering letting the lawyer go and doing the motion, etc myself. I believe I am quite capable to do that and I'm hoping, with the help from this site and forum, I will get the assistance I need to be successful.

We would welcome any, and all, comments/suggestions from others on the forum as I'm sure our situation is similar to many here.

Just one other thing I forgot to mention. There are 2 boys, the oldest is 21 and the youngest will be 17 in May and neither one of them talk to Dan because the Ex has told them that Dan is going to force them out on the street because he wants the house sold.

Thanks for listening, Jeannette
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2013, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeannette View Post
My brother is going through the first stages of the divorce and I am helping him do all the leg work.
It is great that you are assisting your brother in the matter but, I caution you to not become a "negative advocate" in the matter. Often times family members get caught up in the emotional challenges that are Family Law (separation and divorce) and become personally intertwined in the matters.

This posting may be of some assistance in understanding how to "help" in the matter and how "helping some times can hurt":

http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...tes-not-13976/

Secondly, you need to always remember that the separation and divorce is between your brother, Dan, and his partner/spouse. Although you are emotionally connected to the situation, you are not legally connected and are not a "party to the case/proceedings/court action". As much as you want to help your brother, Dan, in this matter, there are aspects of all this you will not be able to help with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeannette View Post
He was forced, and advised by the police, to leave the matrimonial home because the violence towards him, from his wife, was escalating. So April 3,2012 Dan left and moved in with me.
First, as someone who often responds to allegations of intimate partner abuse ("domestic violence") there is a logical flaw commonly known in the community of experts (for which I am not one of them) that I should alert you to in this statement you have made that brings question to the "truthfulness" of your statement.

Breaking this down:
He was (a) forced, and (b) advised by the (c) police, to (d) leave the matrimonial home (e) because the (f) violence towards (g) him, from (h) his wife, was (i) escalating.
With regards to statement (a) and (b):

It is highly improbable that the police (a) "forced" and (b) "advised" this matter. The only way the police could "force" your brother, Dan, to (d) leave the matrimonial home is if he was criminally charged and removed from the residence. Your brother, Dan, was either advised that he should consider finding a different residence or criminally charged by the police and removed from the residence.

The police don't with force advise someone to leave their rightful residence.

An (i) escalation of violence is a vague statement often used by false alligators. A situation can escalate to violence but, in the context of the police violence has occurred for which they would remove someone and charge them criminally or in the alternative if conflict was escalating it could result in violence but, the police can't charge someone for something that hasn't happened.

Also, if the violence was (g) towards your brother, Dan, then it wouldn't be him who was removed from the home and further to this point, you have disclosed that he is on disability (disabled) and would further be impacted from not having a proper residence to live in. The police don't force or advice people onto the streets when they have a home to live in and especially if they are not a danger to themselves or the other residents. The police would remove the dangerous party. This makes your statement even more improbable.

I hope you understand how a justice might read your statement if committed to an affidavit and others who break matters down to make determinations on the "balance of probability" and how they balance the statement and the logic applied in a matter such as this.

Good Luck!
Tayken
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2013, 03:04 PM
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Tayken,

Although you are correct that they do not force you to leave your residence directly, that's pretty much what they do.

It's Peel Police policy that after any domestic dispute one party must remove themselves for a "cooling off period" We were told that if one of us didn't leave someone would be arrested. I'm not sure how they would determine who would be arrested if both parties still refused to leave.

To me this is "Force" as the outcome of not doing so is arrest.

I was also "advised" by a police sergeant that it would be in my best interest to not return that night to avoid potential DV accusations.
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Old 01-23-2013, 04:15 PM
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I was escorted out of the matrimonial home in my situation too by the police. Ex's Mom called the cops and said I threatened ex's life (Never happened) So the cops escorted me out. Charges were dropped against me in court.....Yet surprise, surprise...ex's Mom never got charged with filing a false police report.

3 years later when ex's father denied my access with the kids at Christmas time and stole my Gf's insurance/car ownership info/got in my face violently....we went to the police station and asked to charge him for that violence...Cop said we couldn't because we had no previous encounters with him.

When I told the cop how they had me escorted out of the house 3 years prior because ex's Mom called/said I threatened her life...and I had never ever had an accusation of anything of that sort before, but was still escorted out by the cops.....The officer looked in shock/puzzled that I had been escorted out like that and said "That should have never happened to you!"
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by knackered View Post
I was escorted out of the matrimonial home in my situation too by the police. Ex's Mom called the cops and said I threatened ex's life (Never happened) So the cops escorted me out. Charges were dropped against me in court.....Yet surprise, surprise...ex's Mom never got charged with filing a false police report.
You were criminally charged then and removed. The charges later dropped by the crown. But, how you were removed was by being charged, even if on a false allegation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by knackered View Post
3 years later when ex's father denied my access with the kids at Christmas time and stole my Gf's insurance/car ownership info/got in my face violently....we went to the police station and asked to charge him for that violence...Cop said we couldn't because we had no previous encounters with him.
Now, the charge in this matter is theft and not "violence". Remember, the charge has to be "beyond reasonable doubt' in application. If the paperwork was stolen and then there is beyond resonable doubt to bring forward a criminal charge for theft. But, having an argument is not a criminal offense. Being an idiot in a matter is also not a criminally chargeable offense either. Theft is. So your complaint was possibly for the wrong area under the criminal code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by knackered View Post
When I told the cop how they had me escorted out of the house 3 years prior because ex's Mom called/said I threatened her life...and I had never ever had an accusation of anything of that sort before, but was still escorted out by the cops.....
YOu were escorted out on a criminal charge I would assume as you stated explicitly in the prior statement:
"Charges were dropped against me in court....."
That is how you were removed from the house. You were charged with an offense under the CCC. The peace officers (police) were under law restoring the peace and you were escorted out on a criminal charge. Not the same situation that was described by the OP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by knackered View Post
The officer looked in shock/puzzled that I had been escorted out like that and said "That should have never happened to you!"
Then, you should have asked for his badge number, requested the police incident report for the incident and asked the police officer who advised you of the error in conduct's bade number and filed a detailed complaint with the OIPRD attaching the incident report, the files from the dropped criminal charges by the crown and the incident report for the incident where you were charged and wrongfully removed from your residence and asked for a proper investigation and review into the conduct.

https://www.oiprd.on.ca/cms/

Good Luck!
Tayken
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2013, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FB_ View Post
Tayken,

Although you are correct that they do not force you to leave your residence directly, that's pretty much what they do.
Did they lay criminal charges in the matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FB_ View Post
It's Peel Police policy that after any domestic dispute one party must remove themselves for a "cooling off period".
Could you site the policy as it would be publicly accessible if stated as a policy?

After the matters of Lawrence v. Peel Regional Police Force, 2004 CanLII 66278 (ON SC) the conduct of the Peel Regional Police is rather different than you have described in domestic incidents.

Lawrence v. Peel Regional Police Force, 2004 CanLII 66278 (ON SC)
Date: 2004-05-19
Docket: 03-CV-255317SR
URL: CanLII - 2004 CanLII 66278 (ON SC)
Citation: Lawrence v. Peel Regional Police Force, 2004 CanLII 66278 (ON SC)

Lawrence v. Peel Regional Police Force, 2009 CanLII 19934 (ON SC)
Date: 2009-04-16
Docket: 03-CV-255317 SR
URL: CanLII - 2009 CanLII 19934 (ON SC)
Citation: Lawrence v. Peel Regional Police Force, 2009 CanLII 19934 (ON SC)

Lawrence v. Peel Regional Police Force, 2009 CanLII 27831 (ON SC)

Date: 2009-05-29
Docket: 03-CV-255317 SR
URL: CanLII - 2009 CanLII 27831 (ON SC)
Citation: Lawrence v. Peel Regional Police Force, 2009 CanLII 27831 (ON SC)

Lawrence v. Peel Regional Police Force, 2010 ONSC 6317 (CanLII)
Date: 2010-11-16
Docket: 276/09
URL: CanLII - 2010 ONSC 6317 (CanLII)
Citation: Lawrence v. Peel Regional Police Force, 2010 ONSC 6317 (CanLII)

Andrew Mark Alexander Lawrence v. Peel Regional Police Force and Theresa Maclean, 2012 CanLII 11270 (SCC)
Date: 2012-03-08
Docket: 34553
URL: CanLII - 2012 CanLII 11270 (SCC)
Citation: Andrew Mark Alexander Lawrence v. Peel Regional Police Force and Theresa Maclean, 2012 CanLII 11270 (SCC)

Globe and Mail article on the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FB_ View Post
We were told that if one of us didn't leave someone would be arrested. I'm not sure how they would determine who would be arrested if both parties still refused to leave.
Both parties would have been charged probably in the matter. They play King Solomon in domestic matters a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FB_ View Post
To me this is "Force" as the outcome of not doing so is arrest.
You should have called a criminal lawyer or any lawyer and gotten them on the phone right then and there. I recommend to people often that if a divorce even smells like it could go "Shaw v. Shaw" to get the number of a good criminal defense lawyer. A good one has an answer service that is 24x7 and they answer 24x7. Had an officer of the court been present on the phone advising you and listening to all instruction on speaker phone for the incident, the tone of the police and their conduct changes quite quickly in a matter such as yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FB_ View Post
I was also "advised" by a police sergeant that it would be in my best interest to not return that night to avoid potential DV accusations.
Wise advice from the sergeant. No doubt if the incident occurred after 2004 the matters cited above, which greatly influenced how the Peel Regional Police conduct themselves in domestic situations, was why he advised such possibly rather than automatically laying criminal charges which was the modus operandi previously.

Good Luck!
Tayken
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2013, 08:41 AM
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Get what you are saying on it all Tayken.......
Just frustrating. So is every guy in my situation automatically CHARGED and escorted out? I don't think so.

Oh and our first complaint to the officer was about the ex's Dad stealing GF's ownership/insurance information--Officer refused to charge him with theft for that. Said we couldn't do anything unless he did something with the info--such as file a false report against GF with the info.

I only mentioned the violence part of it because that's what the person's story was about above.
But in my situation we brought up both issues to the officer---theft and violence.

The cop wouldn't even give us a copy of the police report of us going to him when we asked. (wrote about that in a previous thread..people on here told me that I could still get it--explained how)
~But I don't think much would come of that one incident even if I did get the report.

I rant about the bullsh!t on here....however I know in daily life you gotta pick your battles.
And I really don't want to deal with her lol.

The things I deal with are to do with the kids....for example my current situation--my lawyer wrote her lawyer a letter, asking to update our amendment to give me an extra weekend a month with the kids and give me the summer with them.

For the last 3 months ex was dropping kids off to my GF every Friday/I'd return them to school on Monday 3 weekends every month. (Agreement states every other weekend sat-mon for me)
So since ex has already been doing it...I want it in the agreement. (That's a problem with ex...she won't allow the amount of time I have with the kids to be shown on record...she tries to hide it/will lie to the lawyers and say he hasn't had them that much---from 2008-2011 all communication was on phone...I had no proof....2011 till now all communication is through e-mail...I have proof now of how much I have the kids)

ex also has still not provided any babysitting receipts for the year (that's my biggest situation I rant about on here) So lawyer addressed that as well in the letter.

Received letter back from ex's lawyer saying that ex will be representing herself, that my lawyer can communicate directly to ex and it was under her lawyers understanding that ex would be contacting my lawyer to respond to our letter.
(So I don't know what ex is doing....if she truly doesn't have a lawyer now or is just changing lawyers for some reason...I wonder if her not having the babysitting receipts has anything to do with her not having a lawyer?)
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