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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 06-07-2007, 04:05 PM
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Posts: 123
dickstacie is on a distinguished road

A senario: What if a woman, working..paying bills, taking care of EVERYTHING in a relationship...and help putting the guy through school for a very high paying job for the benefit of the FAMILY. In that marriage the woman is making sacrifices so that her family will one day benefit from her husbands high paying job. So this woman is working..dropping kid off here, going there..picking kid up..doing all housework..etc. The husband is only going for his dream. He gets it, then leaves. The wife has done everything while the guy gets his high paying job..which she helped buy him...and he leaves her with the kid and he goes off and has a nice single life. What is child support anyways..doesn't help a single mom much. But to a guy making tons of money per year and just dumps his family..sure he'd pay the little he has doesn't compare to what kind of lifestyle he's going to have. This happened to me after a 4 year marriage. Left us with NOTHING and I didn't get spousal support. The judge said it wasn't a long enough marriage. He even ended up taking my car that I paid 10, 000 into. How am i supposed to support myself and my son? He didn't care. I hope if there is anybody that went through what I went through that they fight in hell for spousal support!!
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2007, 11:19 AM
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Posts: 479
Decent Dad is an unknown quantity at this point

Basically you can get SS for income disperity, compensation, entitlement, and just about anything inbetween (dog died, cat ran away, because it's Tuesday). More so with kids.

Here are some basic assumptions (from the Justice site):

Disparity in income alone, regardless of type and length of marriage, is usually sufficient to trigger an entitlement to spousal support.

Spousal support law was already moving in this direction after Moge, but Bracklow has confirmed the trend. Quinn J. of the Ontario Superior Court of Justice recognized the disappearance of entitlement as a serious issue in the following statement from his judgment in Keller v. Black:

[para. 22] It seems that Bracklow has taken us to the point where any significant reduction in the standard of living of a spouse resulting from the marriage breakdown will warrant a support order—with the quantum and/or duration of the support being used to tweak the order so as to achieve justice in each case.[13]

I am wondering what facts made the judge not give you spousal support.

How am i supposed to support myself and my son?

  #13 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2007, 01:26 PM
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Posts: 123
dickstacie is on a distinguished road

how was I supposed to get work when we lived 25 km from the nearest town? was I to hitchhike with my child? I didn't have any neighbours that weren't very elderly. I did end up getting out of that situation though..and after 2 years have found myself in a very good place in life. I was not represented when we went to court that time and since I didn't know anything about the law, forms, etc, so the judge dismissed me as I didn't have any affidavits or case conference brief. It does happen that the court doesn't always side with the mother and child.
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2007, 03:38 PM
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Posts: 479
Decent Dad is an unknown quantity at this point

Your path from A to B may not be easy.. but sounds like you did it.

Family Law and the Divorce Act only deal with 6 things:

1) Divorce
2) Custody
3) Access
4) Equalization/Division of Assests
5) Child Support
6) Spousal Support

From what I understand, based on your previous e-mails:

- you got a divorce
- you got sole-custody
- you got 100% access (or close to that)
- the property was divided
- you received child support
- no spousal support

So you got 4 out of 5... even though you were, as you stated above, poorly prepared and lacking the knowledge of court process. Wow. I can't imagine getting joint custody and 50-50 access that I won in court without representation and no idea of court processes and the law. So, good for you.

Now, without knowing the details of your trial, there must have been a (very) good reason for no #5.

Family Law does not:

- make people good parents or involved parents
- make people be responsible for themselves*

*although the System makes it easy for people not to be...
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2007, 04:03 PM
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jlalex is on a distinguished road

I'm not saying its easy..or that it is even fair when those kinds of situations happen. But I've been on both sides of the fence so to speak and I just can't get my head wrapped around the idea of one adult supporting another adult. We all make choices in life, rarely if ever there is a gun to anyones head. Yes we all hope for the best but it just doesn't make any sense not to plan for the worst too.

I think I would be hard pressed to find a successful relationship where one person relied solely on the other..and I'm not talking about our parents or grandparents generation...that kind of society is is nearly impossible to live on a single income unless you are incredibly fortunate to have a high paying job and a low cost of living...

In my present situation common law hubbys ex is coming after him for spousal support...after 8+ years..and the kicker is because they are not officially divorced as of yet the Divorce Act still applies and there is a very good possibility that she will get some spousal support. And why..her standard of living hasn't changed since they seperated, yet she feels she is *entitled* to it because he went and got himself a good paying job which he worked incredibly hard for..and they are looking at my income now as well and I sure as hell didn't marry her. Its pretty simple, he can afford to so she thinks that he should. Doesn't matter one bit to her or the court for that matter that his success came after the marriage ended. It is a simple you have more than me and thats not fair. In fact she has even said that on more than one occasion..and during the case conference when the subject of SS came up she actually said to the judge ' can I tell you what I want the money for?'.

What I feel is totally unfair is that even though you go through the hoops to seperate yourself from a person they can still keep coming back for more and more with no end in sight. And I wholeheartedly believe that were the situations reversed and it was a man looking for spousal it wouldn't happen..not like it does in the present family law system.
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-21-2008, 03:12 PM
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billm is on a distinguished road
Default Lucky to be fair

My agreement is not signed yet but...

After some initial lawyer talk etc, my ex and I broke through and we have agreed to a fair agreement for SS and CS. It is fair because we both know the situation and therefore are the best to know what fair is. It is fair because it treats us as individuals that were in a financial arrangement, an arrangement that has ended, so we just have to deal with the past, not the future. I am paying my ex a time limited SS which goes down every year until she is back to her full time earning potential. She stayed at home for 10 years with the kids, but she went and started her career again and it is easy for us to determine how much less she is making because of her time off. Our SS agreement does not change based on the future, BECAUSE WE ARE NO LONGER MARRIED. If she works more, or less, or myself, or we get remarried, who cares we are individuals now, the compensation stays the same regardless. CS is different as you have to look at what you actually make and we are just using the federal tables and adjusting once a year. We had nothing when we met, so we just split our assets/debts into two. It took some work and understanding to get to this point, but in the end is it fair, predictable, and a true end to our relationship. Though it is fair, I sure feel lucky given what I have read here and online. I also remember the times when I thought how horribly financially tied together we would be for the future - the system encourages fighting and people not to think about what is fair but to get what they are entitled to - which is for most people 'as much as they can'.

The Spousal Support Advisory Guideline is horrible - it takes away the facts from the situation and makes you joined with the person forever, which is a horrible feeling. If they mess up, or don't work, or you work hard, or are lucky after separation - they benifit which is completely crazy to me - who this hell is this person attached to your every move? It works both ways though, I don't want to depend on anyone if my life does not go as planned or my life does not go as well as theirs.

And end of a marriage should be an end and the courts and the lawyers that make the rules encourage it to go on forever. It most cases it is pretty easy to determine if the marriage benifitted or damanged someones career, and if so what is the compensation for that. If your spouse makes a lot of money and they would have if they had never been married, then you should not be entitled to their money. It should only be about what was gained or lost as a result of the marriage. So if your career suffered, then determine how much and get comepnsation which is fair and time limited. You do get half of the assets too, so the financial arrangement was equal.

It all seems so simple to me, but people are messed up, and so are the courts.
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2008, 06:20 PM
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Posts: 324
got2bkid is on a distinguished road

Spousal support should only be granted for a short while, untill the recipient is able to get working again.

It is easy to forget that stay-at-home moms made that choice, to quit the work world and raise their kids full time. They are the ones were in situations where they were financially able to stay at home, even if they had to scrimp and save a little, they were still able to it. They also had a choice to go back to work in this situation, if they had wanted to.

Many stay-at-home moms admit that they are lucky to have this choice and that they enjoyed their time as SAHM's. Why, when a divorce occurrs, are these same women looked upon as people who gave up "everything" to look after their kids, house etc. They are suddenly looked upon as victims in the situation, when in reality, it was a privilage they had to be able to stay at home with their kids if they wanted and a choice they made.

Remember that women who are in less favorable financial situations in their marriage and HAVE to work (i.e - have no choice in the matter) are NOT granted SS upon divorce.

So give these women SS untill they get their careers going again, but it should not be unlimited and on-going. They should count their blessings that they were able to have the choice to be SAHM's in the first place.
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2008, 07:51 PM
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 49
privateone is on a distinguished road

Being someone who has been given the shaft on SS, even though she decided to stay at home against my wishes, even during a significant upset in my career, and after the kids were in school, and after split I still put her through university, and now she has a job, and I still have to pay??? I am bitter and extremely angry! There is nothing good about SS, nothing. Under my situation, it is clearly a failed system, and gender biased in an insane way. I'm ashamed of Canada's family law system, and by extension Canada as a country.

well anyway, it felt good typing it out...
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2008, 12:02 AM
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dadtotheend will become famous soon enoughdadtotheend will become famous soon enough

Originally Posted by dickstacie View Post
how was I supposed to get work when we lived 25 km from the nearest town? was I to hitchhike with my child?.
Uhhh, you move, nobody said had it was going to easy.

Originally Posted by dickstacie View Post
I did end up getting out of that situation though..and after 2 years have found myself in a very good place in life.
You made it and ended up on your feet, without SS. Good for you. I wonder whether that would have happened with SS??
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2008, 10:35 AM
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phoenix is on a distinguished road

I fought for and receive spousal support, and I have NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. It is the moral thing to do.

My ex and I chose TOGETHER that he would work outside the home while I stay home and raise OUR children. It was a mutual decision and I counted on his word when he made the verbal and written commitment "until death do us part" that he would stand by me, that we were a team.

So for 25 years, while his career moved forward during those citical young years of employment, he enjoyed coming home to a hot meal, enjoyed selecting his freshly laundered shirt each morning, played with his sweetly bathed children for some pleasant quality time each evening, put his feet up to watch Jeopardy in his tidy, enjoyable livingroom. Did I mind? No. I was honouring my side of our agreement, and I was counting on him to honour his side of our agreement.

Suddenly, just after our 25th anniversary, kids are mostly grown, his career booming, he phones me for a divorce.

There I was... haha... fully trained to wash dishes, iron clothes, and change diapers... my first job paid $11K per year. His paid $90K+. I have no problem getting out into the work force and earn a living. I found work immediately upon separating and have worked full-time ever since. But to expect me to instantly suddenly find a job that is even NEAR his income/career is ridiculous. My best years of employment are behind me. I am now past middle-aged. I have no secondary education. If I *do* go back to school I'm looking at being even OLDER when I graduate, and then I'm still at the bottom of the pile for hiring. I'm old and I have no experience. I am starting to experience the natural usual effects of age, such as arthritis in my hands, aching back and knees... and it ain't gonna get any better folks. The idea that I now have 25 years ahead of me to establish a career, enjoy excellent youthful health and be able to now save for my retirement is near impossible to achieve. 25 years in the work force will have me into my late 70's when most other people will already have been retired for 10 years. But some people on this board would have that be the case, since they don't think my ex (who backed out of his end of our contract) should have to offer the same kind of support I offered him in our younger years.

From what I can see, I supported him for 25 years and since he chose to break our agreement, he can now support me for that approximate length of time. Why should I live below the poverty level because he willingly chose to have (and enjoyed the luxury of) a live-in cook, cleaner and 24/7 nanny for 25 years?

In the business community when one party wants out of a contract early, there are always concessions made to allow for unmet present and future obligations when the contract is backed out of. The marriage contract is no different. He originally vowed "til death us do part" and signed his name on the line. He wanted out early... why on earth should he now enjoy a six figure income and I live in poverty?

I, for one, am extremely grateful that the courts have the good sense to see that spousal support is fair and necessary in some cases.
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