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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SadAndTired View Post
This argument has no merit at all. Many women drank and smoke during pregnancy in the past too. Does that mean it is in the best interest of the child? No.

I am not saying that the dad shouldn't have time. He needs time to bond as well and should have parenting time with his kids.

But to leverage the argument that something is okay because people did it for years and turned out fine, is ridiculous and simplified. I am surprised at you Tayken. Usually your arguments are better thought out.
There is no merit in your argument either.

You cannot compare smoking during pregnancy - which is not illegal and does not result in court action - with what would be in essence court-ordered breastfeeding.

We do not have the courts or the government impose strict nutritional requirements on 2 year olds, 5 year olds, or 10 year olds. It may be "better" to feed children organic soy milk and brown rice burgers, but we do not legislate that or have case law supporting it. Neither should we have case law or legislation that would essentially require breastfeeding.

We do not apprehend bottle-fed babies on the grounds of child endangerment or malnutrition. We should not keep these babies from their fathers just becasue a mother refuses to allow bottle feeding for 2 days a week.

The best interest of the child is not a single way of childrearing that is carved in granite. It is a broad spectrum that can include breastmilk, or formula or a combination, just as it can support home-schooling, private tutors, or general public education. It is black and white, and thinking that breastfeeding is the only option that should be supported by the courts is black and white thinking.
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2013, 12:10 PM
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Brent Barilla, a family law lawyer in Saskatoon, isn't involved in this case but has dealt with similar ones. In more than 20 years practising law, he said he can't remember an outcome like this.
"I can't even recall a time where the court hasn't sort of gone out of its way to make sure that they respect that decision on the part of the mother and what that means to the child and work around that," he said.
Possibly Brent Barilla should consider that family has changed over the last 20 years and is starting to consider that mother's decisions are not the only ones that are important.
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2013, 12:11 PM
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I'm sure the courts also took into consideration what would happen if mom were unavailable due to illness, death or in this case incarceration.

If dad was an only parent, the baby would be bottle fed and nobody would take issue with it.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:14 PM
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There is no merit in your argument either.

You cannot compare smoking during pregnancy - which is not illegal and does not result in court action - with what would be in essence court-ordered breastfeeding.................It is black and white, and thinking that breastfeeding is the only option that should be supported by the courts is black and white thinking.
I never said the court should order breast feeding. I never said the woman in the article is right. I actually did say that I thought the dad deserved parenting time and meant it.

What I said was Tayken saying because everyone did it for years and turned out fine is a lame argument without merit. Do you think that the courts should make rulings based on that? Guess the tender years doctrine shouldn't have been overturned? People used it for years.

So much for science based medicine....... many people did it and turned out fine. It must be okay!
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by blinkandimgone View Post
I'm sure the courts also took into consideration what would happen if mom were unavailable due to illness, death or in this case incarceration.

If dad was an only parent, the baby would be bottle fed and nobody would take issue with it.
It is sad that this has turned into a breastfeeding issue. To me, it is just about control.

The mom doesn't want to give the baby to dad. I get it. I would have found it really, really hard too with a baby that small. It takes a lot to be able to put aside your own feelings/emotions/conflict and let your child have a great relationship with the other parent.

But unfortunately the mom in the article lost a bit of my respect when she said she was willing to go to jail instead of letting dad see his baby. Really?? How does that help her baby at all?? At that moment, she showed her hand that it is about her controlling the situation instead of about breastfeeding her baby. She certainly can't do that from jail....

Last edited by SadAndTired; 07-20-2013 at 12:21 PM.
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2013, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SadAndTired View Post
What I said was Tayken saying because everyone did it for years and turned out fine is a lame argument without merit. Do you think that the courts should make rulings based on that? Guess the tender years doctrine shouldn't have been overturned? People used it for years.
Thanks for clarifying. When everyone does something for years and it turns out fine, this is called empirical evidence, not "a lame argument."
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Old 07-20-2013, 01:09 PM
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Apologies if it comes across as a breastfeeding issue, I don't see it that way at all, and agree it is a control issue.

I agree it would be difficult as a mom to hand over the baby for exchanges, it would be equally difficult for dad on a number of different levels. Dad is and should be treated equal, yet he isn't because he doesn't have breasts and is being told this is the ONLY way the baby can be fed - which isn't true, but he is told what he can and can't do because he doesn't.

It is equally difficult for dad to be away from the child, to be told that the baby bonding with him is less important, not just feeding the child, but to be completely involved.
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2013, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Thanks for clarifying. When everyone does something for years and it turns out fine, this is called empirical evidence, not "a lame argument."
Awesome.

No it isn't empirical evidence. It is just Tayken's opinion. And "turns out fine" is relative, don't you think?

Empirical evidence requires neutral observers making clinical observations and analyzing observed data, not some over generalized statement of "everybody did it therefore it is okay".

I don't think formula fed posters on an anonymous web forum qualify (myself included) to make non biased judgment of "empirical evidence".
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2013, 02:27 PM
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Empirical evidence includes data aquired by observation, and meta data from decades of clinical reports. There is no evidence that bottle fed babies are malnourished or grow up with any deficiencies or health issues.
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-20-2013, 02:45 PM
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Empirical evidence includes data aquired by observation, and meta data from decades of clinical reports. There is no evidence that bottle fed babies are malnourished or grow up with any deficiencies or health issues.
Oh for Pete's sake. So I guess you think Tayken's quickly posted opinion qualifies as empirical evidence under the definition you have posted above?

The bottom line is Tayken said

Quote:
In fact, I suspect that formula and cows milk was the liquid of choice that many of the adult posters were fed as a child themselves. The recent and modern lactivist have a poor argument in my opinion as generations of non-breastfed children exist in North America (Canada) and have grown up to be successful and productive adults.
He started in with lactivist. I am of the opinion that this is not about breastfeeding at all.

My only statement was that "everyone else did it" is a lame argument regardless of the scenario it is applied to. That's it.

You want science. You think breastmilk is not best?? Tayken always wants me to back up my information. Here you go.

Breastfeeding and Maternal and Infant Health Outcomes in Developed Countries - NCBI Bookshelf

Do you want me to summarize the information for you?

Quote:
We screened over 9,000 abstracts. Forty-three primary studies on infant health outcomes, 43 primary studies on maternal health outcomes, and 29 systematic reviews or meta-analyses that covered approximately 400 individual studies were included in this review. We found that a history of breastfeeding was associated with a reduction in the risk of acute otitis media, non-specific gastroenteritis, severe lower respiratory tract infections, atopic dermatitis, asthma (young children), obesity, type 1 and 2 diabetes, childhood leukemia, sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), and necrotizing enterocolitis. There was no relationship between breastfeeding in term of infants and cognitive performance.
So yes, there are health implications.

Here is another summary for the Surgeon General of the US.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NB...ort=objectonly

No, there is no effect on "success and productivity" in adults as presented by Tayken. He is saying that lactivists have a "poor argument" and I am saying he is living in a glass house.

But does that mean the Dad in the article shouldn't see his baby? NO. Which is what I was trying to say when Tayken posted about it in the first place.

To me, this is not about breastfeeding at all and hopefully the courts and judges will be able to make sound, neutral judgments based on their experience and education. I am sure that Tayken saying over and over on this board "I would recommend that......" has no bearing on any of it at all.

I'm done.

Last edited by SadAndTired; 07-20-2013 at 03:36 PM.
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