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Divorce Support This forum is for discussing the emotional aspects of divorce: stress, anger, betrayal of trust and more.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2014, 01:55 PM
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A few questions/comments:

A. Out of curiosity, does she want to get divorced herself? I am asking because its important to understand where somebody's "head" is at to know what they are going to do (or not do) next.

B. All this time in the house together is NOT going to easily be proven to be that you had "sole" custody. It can be presented that you were co-parenting and you'll almost have the burden of proving she wasn't pulling her weight especially since you are employed, she isn't and she is pregnant. This will complicate matters in terms of custody. In court things don't always get presented the way they really are.

C. I think you need to consult a lawyer, it seems your ex hasn't done so already and so she is vulnerable to you getting her to make certain admissions about things like:
-you will have custody
-adultery
-employment etc....
Once you have those admissions, they can be used later.


I don't normally recommend consulting lawyers in certain cases but I feel you are a little bit naive about what the potential outcomes are. You need to protect yourself.

D. In terms of spousal support this is what you argue:
- She made no sacrifices for the family - due to her own personal reasons (imply the trip as an example) was unable to secure employment.

- She traveled for months leaving me to care for children and work while she enjoyed herself. She in fact gave me custody during that time. She kept ______ level of contact, which is below the minimum..

-She has accepted that I keep sole custody for the children as she cannot offer them any stability and acknowledges I am a good father. The children have thrived in this environment.

-You now have the responsibility of providing for the children of the marriage and for yourself, your income is not enough to meet your needs and is hardly enough to meet her needs as well. You will continue to make sacrifices in to the future to support your children (sick days from school, days off etc......) which is in fact for her to owe you spousal support.

-She has the responsibilty of providing child support and you ask that she finds employment 6 months after she gives birth and/or is imputed minimum wage from that day going forward.

-You will accommodate non-sleepover access rights once a week and will increase access based on your common agreement with the spouse

-Does she have family or something here where she can stay?

-Also never mention the word abandon, mom left them etc... no matter what a parent does - the other parent is not supposed to criticize them. It can be considered alienation.

Last edited by Links17; 10-27-2014 at 02:27 PM.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2014, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FightingForFamily View Post
It's not about your expectation, but about Canadian Law.

Before separation/divorce people are pretty much free to do what they want with their work and salary. As soon as you separate however, these laws kick into effect and put the legal obligation to work like a slave. If you choose not to work, you still have to pay. If you don't pay, they take your driver's license, passport, bank accounts, government benefits and so on.

Coming up with agreements that don't take the law into count is a terrible idea because at any point, one of the parties can walk into a court house, have the agreement thrown away and have the law enforced instead.

For example, you can offer her $500,000 cash so that you won't pay spousal support. She can accept the money, and then take you to court for the support money as well. The cash could be seen as a gift or equalization.

It is better to have an agreement that addresses all points of the law so that it is legally enforceable and has as little wiggle room as possible.

I don't know how much money you make, but your ex wife may be entitled to $5000 per month from you. If she doesn't work, she would perhaps pay $500 in child support. Your agreement should include both appoints, and the wording has to indicate that the money is being exchanged "but for convenience" you would send $4500.

If you don't word it this way for example, you can't claim it on your taxes as a deduction.
Really appreciate your inputs. And your example and reminding on the wording on the item of CS and SS, I will keep this in mind. Anyway, probably I shall hire a lawyer to review our draft agreements before signing them.

Thanks again.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2014, 09:23 AM
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Thanks a lot for your inputs, especially for teaching on how to protect myself. This is my first marriage and I trusted her and never thought of such type of affair happened to me, I have to admit I'm really naive.

Please see my replies below among the quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Links17 View Post
A few questions/comments:

A. Out of curiosity, does she want to get divorced herself? I am asking because its important to understand where somebody's "head" is at to know what they are going to do (or not do) next.
==> After knowing that she got pregnant the other day, actually it's me who made a decision on the divorce and she agreed to it orally as I can't face this fact and accept that.

B. All this time in the house together is NOT going to easily be proven to be that you had "sole" custody. It can be presented that you were co-parenting and you'll almost have the burden of proving she wasn't pulling her weight especially since you are employed, she isn't and she is pregnant. This will complicate matters in terms of custody. In court things don't always get presented the way they really are.
==> yes, I know that probably is hard. Not sure if the court or the judge will communicate with both children, if so, they can tell something about my wife, if they are comfortable with me or my wife, or if they will stay with their Mon or me. Personally I think, the children are more attached to me than my wife.

C. I think you need to consult a lawyer, it seems your ex hasn't done so already and so she is vulnerable to you getting her to make certain admissions about things like:
-you will have custody
-adultery
-employment etc....
Once you have those admissions, they can be used later.
==> Yes, I'm going to consult a lawyer, which should be easy to me.

I don't normally recommend consulting lawyers in certain cases but I feel you are a little bit naive about what the potential outcomes are. You need to protect yourself.
==> I agree, thanks for reminding.

D. In terms of spousal support this is what you argue:
- She made no sacrifices for the family - due to her own personal reasons (imply the trip as an example) was unable to secure employment.

- She traveled for months leaving me to care for children and work while she enjoyed herself. She in fact gave me custody during that time. She kept ______ level of contact, which is below the minimum..

-She has accepted that I keep sole custody for the children as she cannot offer them any stability and acknowledges I am a good father. The children have thrived in this environment.

-You now have the responsibility of providing for the children of the marriage and for yourself, your income is not enough to meet your needs and is hardly enough to meet her needs as well. You will continue to make sacrifices in to the future to support your children (sick days from school, days off etc......) which is in fact for her to owe you spousal support.

-She has the responsibilty of providing child support and you ask that she finds employment 6 months after she gives birth and/or is imputed minimum wage from that day going forward.

-You will accommodate non-sleepover access rights once a week and will increase access based on your common agreement with the spouse

-Does she have family or something here where she can stay?

-Also never mention the word abandon, mom left them etc... no matter what a parent does - the other parent is not supposed to criticize them. It can be considered alienation.
==> Really appreciated these points and I will keep that in mind not to criticize her. BTW, my wife doesn't have family or anything here except us, we are the first generation of immigrant here. She wants to move out of the house after we have divorce paper works done.

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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2014, 10:25 AM
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I don't think anyone has mentioned, but you will also be required to split all of your assets and debts 50-50. So if you own a house, and there is 100K equity (e.g. mortgage of $300K and value of $400K) then you will owe her $50K cash (unless she wants to stay in the house, then she would owe YOU $50K cash). Debts are also split. It's not every item that is split - just the net totals should be 50-50.

If you own your own business then she gets 50% of that value also ... which means you'll have to come up with a valuation of the business that you agree on.

There are a few exceptions e.g. insurance claim payouts, or inheritances ... which can be kept separate *IF* they weren't rolled into your joint account or used to pay for joint assets (or to pay off joint debts).

As far as parenting time, everything depends on what she wants. I'd suggest you don't put up any barriers, invite her to take the kids 50-50, if not right now, then later when she feels she can manage it. My reason is that if you try to limit her time, she may in spite agitate for 50-50 when in reality she wants at most the occasional phone call and weekend afternoon visit. But then, I'm just going based on what you have written so far, you'd know better. The only line you'd want with 'flexible' visitation schedule is that you'd require either a regular schedule that she can stick with, or 1 week (minimum) notice of a visit, just so you can live your life, make plans etc.

Last edited by dinkyface; 10-28-2014 at 10:40 AM.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2014, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinkyface View Post
I don't think anyone has mentioned, but you will also be required to split all of your assets and debts 50-50. So if you own a house, and there is 100K equity (e.g. mortgage of $300K and value of $400K) then you will owe her $50K cash (unless she wants to stay in the house, then she would owe YOU $50K cash). Debts are also split. It's not every item that is split - just the net totals should be 50-50.

If you own your own business then she gets 50% of that value also ... which means you'll have to come up with a valuation of the business that you agree on.

There are a few exceptions e.g. insurance claim payouts, or inheritances ... which can be kept separate *IF* they weren't rolled into your joint account or used to pay for joint assets (or to pay off joint debts).
Here is a thought, if you prefer not to get CS from her on an ongoing basis, you can ask for a lump sum out of the asset split. So for example, if the assets total 100,000, instead of splitting 50/50, ask for 75/25 for you, in return for no CS from her. You'd have to do the math to see if this makes sense, and of course, she would have to agree. If she is an unstable person without a good work history, this might make sense for both of you.
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2014, 11:36 AM
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Looks like a good idea to me!!

MINIMAL child support obligations over the next 10-15 years would be around $75K.

Also, you can probably claim she has a 'high flight risk', meaning it is likely that she will leave the country to evade child support obligations. She is unemployable here, father of her child is in another country, she has not taken any interest in her children here (in spite of your encouragement to see them --- if that's how it pans out over the next few months), and has no support network here. The counterargument though is if you will be paying spousal support more than a few hundred/month - THAT keeps her here.

It's 'funny' that she has refused to see doctors for mental health ... I'm guessing she will suddenly become very interested in seeing doctors, to be diagnosed with some debilitating condition that renders her unable to work...and presto YOU have a dependent for life (read the spousal support guidelines on this topic).
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2014, 03:35 PM
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Do not assume any responsibility for that baby. Don't buy things for it, prepare bottles or anything. Don't watch the baby while she showers, etc. You don't want to be in a position where you are assuming a parental role. Otherwise you will have to pay CS for that child too.
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Old 10-29-2014, 09:01 AM
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After consulting a lawyer yesterday, following her advice, the less I discuss this affair publicly the better, I can't make any more replies/responses from now on, but thanks a lot for your time and inputs.

Again thank you all for the inputs, I really appreciate your kind help, especially at this hard time to me. All the best to you all.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2014, 10:10 AM
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Smart to be careful. Keep reading on this site-lots of useful info here. Also, remember that your lawyer is working for you i.e., you should stay in control of your own case. They are the expert, they will advise, but you are the decider. You should be educating yourself as much as possible about your options. Read here, on CanLII (search to find cases similar to your own), there are some good book recommendations here too, plus the justice.gov.ca website.

You'll read on here a lot of people frustrated with lawyers soaking up their $ with little results - knowledge is your best defence against this. Another tip- get your own copies of all emails,documents,faxes,keep records of all lawyer activities so you can check their billing, and in worst case you are able to switch lawyers and have all your case info in your possession.

Last edited by dinkyface; 10-29-2014 at 10:24 AM.
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