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Financial Issues This forum is for discussing any of the financial issues involved in your divorce.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2014, 12:34 PM
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In "real" gambling every player knows, or should reasonably be expected to know, that the house will always win. I think what your ex did is more like making dumb financial decisions, such as buying a big house in an area with falling property values or signing up for more credit cards than he can afford to pay off.
I get your point and I understand it isn't exactly the same as gambling but considering my ex has zero experience and never consulted a broker to make the trades...his behavior was extremely reckless. If you saw the stocks he bought, you'd have a good laugh. He was investing some very large amounts in Chinese companies that often tanked the second he bought them. Even when he bought normal stocks he moved them around like a nervous hamster. From month to month, he'd sometimes trade the same stock multiple times.

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I'm not sure what it means that he hid his activities and used joint matrimonial resources to carry the out. I would hope that comes back to bite him. But it may also be analogous to a situation where one party is a spendthrift (of whatever kind).
I agree with the spendthrift analogy with the account I should have known about. I take full blame for not insisting that I see the details of the account. Needless to say, his "punishment" is: 1) that it contributed to my insisting upon a divorce 2) like me, he also didn't benefit financially from the losses, and 3) he's not happy that I'm aware of how much money he lost. He's a classic narcissist and lives in fear that his image will be eroded. As I said, it was common for him to brag about his stock trading skills.

The account I didn't know about, I could pursue finding out what happened to the money he withdrew from that account but its really not worth the time it would take.

What I'm looking for right now is any leverage I can have to get him to accept my offer without having to go to trial. I'm basically going to tell him next week when my new offer is tendered that he either accepts, without the nickel and diming, or we go to trial...no more crap. If we go to trial, I'm going to bring up the losses, the missing funds and his stupidity will end up on Canlii.

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However, in your case the sums involved are so high that it might be worth consulting with a forensic accountant in tandem with a lawyer to see if you have a chance of getting any of it back.
The sum is high but not when you place it over the time period we're talking about. I have 10 years worth of statements...so a 200k loss would amount yearly to 20k in losses. People blow that kind of money all the time in marriages. And realistically, although most people would hope that they at least keep the principle invested amount...it doesn't always happen, especially given that there was a big stock market crash in the U.S. in 2008. Also a court will look at the loss in proportion to our household funds over the same time period to determine whether it rose to the level of "unconscionable." I'm still walking away with half of the principled invested amount...I didn't take on any debt due to losses (which would have seriously pissed me off).

When I first saw the losses, I admit it was shocking. All I could think about is how hard I worked to make that much money...how much time away from my kids...how many times I dragged work home and did it half the night, etc. But I'm over it...now I just don't care. I know that sounds nuts given that I'm talking about 300k in total between losses and withdrawn funds but I want to get my divorce finalized really bad. I can and will make the money back now that my ex is gone. My new partner is some kind of financial savant. I just handed him everything and somehow I've got more savings than I had the last 5 years of my marriage even before I've got equalization done. And I will never again make the mistake of not knowing where every dime of my money goes.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 01-17-2014, 04:52 PM
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Sorry this is a wordy post - my specialty I guess.... just so hard for me to get things out of my head and it is only getting harder now that our divorce is finally beginning to get resolved in the courts - getting ready to fight the toughest battle ever, far tougher than all my surgeries put together. I came so very close to not making it this far - and so thankful that I have.... so for any who chose to read what "as the OP rightfully termed - she will be satisfied with what she will get as she dumps "I leave her description of her ex spouse stand on its own".

Then what it means to really fight "Reckless Dissipation" by a spouse, crafty, behind my back, direct lies when faced with inquiries and finally, perhaps if I may say given the opportunity to go as far as she did to the point she stopped even trying to hide her actions - I was that far gone, she no longer worried about me..... This never made her actions right or moral and hopefully when this is over found to be illegal enough that I will again have an opportunity to live with dignity.....

Lots of people here are stuck on is stock trading, penny stocks, day trading is gambling or a cause to unequal division of ne property - I did not answer as it was not what the OP was asking and this question should be on a new thread to respect the rights of the OP!!! (even if we have had our differences - I still respect her for what effort she puts into this board - Thank you ( please though avoid drilling me in the future......:-))

What is being asked is a very complicated issue only in my knowledge applies to my research into my very specific circumstance - and I have found many rulings "in my favour" only in that the intent of winning or losing is not the legal issue the judge must decide. The judge must rule on (based on the assumption that every gambler, stock trader, drug meth lab dealer went into their endeavour to make money - not lose it!! The true legal issue is if it was done as an equal partnership (to the full knowledge of the other spouse) or was it "done behind their back", was it done in secret, and here is a biggie, "did these particular actions mimic actions of the past - if so there was no Reckless Dissipation!!

Reckless dissipation is what you guys are asking by the way - you must prove to the judge that you were not aware, you were lied to, you had absolutely no idea whatso ever that the particular activities were taking place.... (think of your spouse buying expensive items and you can't figure where the money came from, you live in a million dollar house and your spouse makes $35K a year. The courts are not stupid.

In my case my issue to resolve is the basic fact that when I was employed, making good money and yes we did some small penny stock trading and I was allowed to into the list for a broker who made his money setting up IPO's (initial public offerings - perhaps the riskiest of all investing!!) This set the bar on normalcy for our marriage, or did it?? Thankfully I have located enough evidence that in 2000 I lost my job (my health tanked and I ended up on full time CPP disability) but when I did do the trading it was always in very small dollar amounts and say 5% of our total portfolio (hence conservative investing for our ages and family situation).

So in perpective I made 100K a year and I risked $2 to $5K a year on high risk investments which I made clear to my ex then - any stock trading must be looked as "the minute you put one dollar into a stock you must consider it lost money. On top of that and this turned out to be something my ex could never grasp - investing must be done with a plan, before purchase to have limits of selling set - say sell half when the stock rises 50% and sell out 100% if the stock falls 25% and not hold onto the false dream of "it will come back and I will make money with this bad investment!!)

My ex I have proven to have never sold, never invested and stuck to a plan and invested worse than a novice!!! She never took action to mitigate losses, she never made sure of maintaining a balanced portfolio, let alone a balanced portfolio within her stock investing (she nearly 100% put all the money into a very particular type of company - which also happened to be in the area deemed to be of the highest risk, most likely to lose 100% of it's value speculative type of endeavours) Yes there was a chance of hitting it big but the odds were like the odds on a 6/49 winning ticket - not many of us have bought that winning ticket - I wish all the best to those lucky enough to have won "the big one".

But you do not take 60% of 25 years of saving in under 20 weeks and "gamble on the 6/49 type of penny stocks. You do not do nothing but watch every stock tank to near Zero Value - You do not "steal more money to buy even more stock "to average down" when the market is in a crash mode as it did in 2008 for the last time "the markets did a major downward correction". But all that is not Reckless Dissipation!!!! It is just as the OP and a few others pointed out "I married an ass - and thankful they are divorcing that same ASS!!!!

What did I need to show the court - proof that in fact I shut down speculative type investing 100% when the job and my earning potential tanked. Stocks is for investors who can afford to lose it all and not have it affect the bigger picture in the financial security of the entire family! Proof that the IPO Brokerage paid the commission to sell my one remaining stock themselves to allow them to shut my account down for inactivity - I can do that.

I can show that our small penny stock account was sold out with the only remaining stocks sitting there that would cost me more to sell in commissions than what the stock would sell for and I can show this matched the year "I went onto CPP Disability (this all must admit that stock investing is not for persons who now must depend on disability payments to eat!!". I can show with medical evidence to the day when I had a major breakdown and continued to live in a state of "breakdown to the end".

This is where Reckless dissipation comes in - I can show medically I was not in a position to prevent the actions my ex took - that the money she took (because of my entire 20 plus years of marriage I struggled with the medical crap, surgeons and more - my ex was officially made our family banker with the signing of Power of Attorney to safeguard my retirement savings, my excluded under 4(2)3 accident damage awards that occurred prior to our marriage even!!! The fact that the accident was prior to the date of marriage is a big deal legally...... Really BIG!!!

I stop here - The burden the courts place on proving Reckless Dissipation has not been detailed here - it is so darn difficult, at least in my circumstance - why I never gave up is the easy fact that my ex left basically nothing - my ability to "make it on my own" was effectively accomplished by the ex - even what she did to ensure my ability to rightfully pursue an extremely "meritorious case" was nearly eliminated.

I still have not shown here the needed evidence which thankfully has come together, hopefully well enough to satisfy the court, that illness, disability and the burdens these issues create really do make everything that much more difficult to "get to the bottom of it all and IF NOT FOR THE GENEROUSITY OF A COUPLE OF Toronto LAWYERS THAT I COULD NOT EVEN AFFORD THEIR TRAVEL EXPENSES.... what they have offered me a chance as how they have put it - "to see that Family Law can still provide JUSTICE to what they termed for the victims of A spouse's intent, and very capable of finishing off their target - and getting away with it all".

I Just had a unscheduled break on top of my keyboard.... I hate my crashing, my life at this point is nothing but trying to regain what I can from what has been termed as "perhaps the most unbelievably deranged Ex, that "I have been losing my battle to survive her" - and up to now the legal representation has been perhaps the worst they have ever witnessed in their careers..... As the last set of doctors who agreed to make a full evaluation of my current state: What my wife did was inexcusable on any and every level, what my Ex has done is short of perhaps the worst case of "vilification" of an ex spouse short of homicide..... perhaps as they said, "worse in that a dead spouse is dead - they are just amazed given my other issues that I must deal with - that I have managed to survive what they have all "the police, the doctors, the mental health....." have finally put together and this doctor who wants to help me and in the course of doing so, was just trying to figure out why I scored so "unbelievably low on her scale"......

As to dissipation - why people do not fight this in court is it is such a difficult issue to meet the requirements set forth by the courts and the laws themselves - like fighting true parental alienation "can bankrupt the victim in many more ways than just money....". It is a battle that can exhaust a healthy spouse - never mind one who's issues have only significantly grown since "this all began". I have been asked many times why I had "fallen off the board" (stopped posting) and the answer is easy - I had to shift my energy to just trying to stay alive for my kids for these doctors are so adamantly positive that the harm my ex has done to me - has also been done as a course of my ex's vilification campaign against her target - ME!
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-17-2014, 06:19 PM
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That's quite the post ddo1! While the subject of dissipation of assets is an interesting read for many, I understand your pursuit of it must be quite taxing on you. The signing of Power of Attorney to your then-g/f was obviously the pivotal point? When did you end up revoking the Power of Attorney? I do know that being given Power of Attorney has serious consequences if the power has been abused. Have you ever been advised to consider criminal litigation? I wonder if that is something one does in this situation? I think immediately of Elder Abuse.

Thank you for sharing your experience.
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Old 01-17-2014, 09:25 PM
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As many here know, I have been fighting what seems like even to me a battle that only a very few understand - that my issues go well beyond the general help we give each other here. Help that at times I believe helped me get thru the roughest of times - the times that I may have actually acted on the darkest fears that any of us may ever have at times that most people can't even contemplate....

As far as retribution? I took to heart the wisdom this forum did perhaps help me to accept the most.... and that is divorce can never be about getting back, getting even, get a "one up on your spouse". Perhaps what has hurt the most in this system of ours is the disadvantage to those of us who work so hard to "remain in that high road of morality - if for no other reason than I really truly believe that integrity is one thing she can't take from me (yeas I will get nailed for this next comment!!!) as she has managed to take just about everything else perhaps the hardest to accept is my dignity. I have been forced to do and think, and even accept so many things that after working as hard as I had, to be the best dad I could be - pain or no pain, that I never dreamed possible.

To the positive - I have grown tremendously as a person, what is really important in life and although I can't explain this aside from I have been told by so many people that I am able to leave others with such an intense impression that they never forget me.... I have had people stop me in the street here that perhaps maybe a doctor, or even a store employee that I had not seen in years or they helped me while I had one of my severe pain "events" that left me in tears on the floor in the middle of a grocery store" (perhaps not so good for me but while I am in a position many people can't fathom how I survive yet manage to show genuine concern so as to make others "feel good about themselves".

Maybe it was a resident that helped me during one of my many crisis, or in such pain I can't even see - but I still manage to show them a smile and courtesy that makes them "feel good about themselves, make all those sleepless nights to get through their residency all worth it". I feel ashamed that I can't recognize their face yet I left such a positive impact in their lives that they will remember me as they say "forever".

Then I think of the loss of what I had considered for so many years, maybe best said as my real "wife" who held my heart for the last 10 years of her life as the person I married wasn't much of one..... and I miss her so much - it has been nearly a year now and it still feels like it was "just yesterday" --- and then I think of "Our Poem" - Just this side of Heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.

And she really helps me to remember what really is important in my life - and I pray for the day when my children "really come back into my life".

Last edited by ddol1; 01-17-2014 at 09:28 PM.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 01-17-2014, 11:49 PM
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The loss of your dog and companion was undoubtedly a painful experience. I really hope that while you cherish her memory you can someday again enjoy the simple pleasures that life offers. All we can really hope in the end is that our children love us and treasure happy memories. Your life is still ahead of you and you can still make great memories and, once again, live 'like there is no tomorrow.'
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