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Parenting Issues This forum is for discussing any of the parenting issues involved in your divorce, including parenting of step-children.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2010, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerDad View Post
That said, Grandfather has no authority to deny access to you, the parent. Should you ever attend your access and he attempts to deny access, I would calmly walk to your car without making a scene and call the police as he is at worst kidnapping them or at best unlawfully withholding them.
Kidnapping... seriously??

No third party has the authority to deliver the children to anyone/anywhere, without the express consent of the CUSTODIAL parent.

Grandpa was acting under the AUTHORITY of the CUSTODIAL parent, and was simply acting as a means of transportation to see a Doctor... he was under no obligation to hand the minor child over to an additional third party.

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Originally Posted by HammerDad View Post
Then leave, go buy a bottle of pop or pack of gum from the closest store and get the date stamped receipt.
And do what with it? Do you seriously think a Judge is going to waste his/her time reading bubble-gum receipts?

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Originally Posted by HammerDad View Post
But you are not to be told, by anyone, when you can and cannot court ordered or agreed exercise your parenting time.
See what I mean about over-reacting a little bit? Stop running around waving your "court order" like a lunatic, and take a deep, calming breath...

Dude wasn't talking about continued issues with denying access... he was talking about two isolated incidents, where the child was sick... and the "primary parent" made a judgement call about single access visits.

Calling the police, trumped up contempt proceedings, and gum receipts.... are hardly the reaction that suits this particular situation...

I think at this stage, a single, firm email, regarding make up time, is more than sufficient, with remarks made with regards to appropriate behaviour/language in the presence of the child.

Maybe even mention in said email... in a calm, and rational manner... that both parties should try to work towards negotiating an agreement for the next time when the child is not feeling well, approaching a scheduled access time... Then when said issue re-occurs (and it will), both parties will have a clear understanding of what is expected of them...

Flying off the handle will do nothing more than exacerbate an already precarious situation.

On a side note... your reaction surprised me HammerDad... I have come to expect better from you.
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2010, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by HammerDad View Post
If this was me, I would first call and ask if the child is too sick to attend my parenting time, when will I be receiving makeup time? If they say I don't get any, I would say fine and then without advising them, I would go to their house (with my digital recorder running) and calmly and politely request my child be provided to me per the court orders. I would explain that I am as capable of looking a sick child as they are and that the court orders doesn't provide for a "sick day" clause.
There you go again, riding in like a warrior, waving his iron "court order".

After being advised that the child is ill, and not able to participate in access... your best solution is to show up, unannounced at the custodial parents' door-step, flapping your paperwork and a digital recorder?

Think THAT will go over well?

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Originally Posted by HammerDad View Post
I am not suggesting going in there playing the heavy
That is EXACTLY what you are doing.... Throwing fuel on the fire!

I think you are beggining to lose sight of the fact that you are talking about a child here... a person... not a commodity to be tossed around because you have a piece of paper that says you are entitled to a specific time schedule...

In the real world, kids get sick... shit happens, and sometimes, as the ADULTS we need to put our feelings and opinions aside, and so called "rights" aside, and put the children's needs FIRST!

  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2010, 11:50 PM
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Hammer, I think you took it to the extreme. The grandfather took the child to the doctors and then home to either his house or the other parents house. Where? We don't know the whole story.
Sending your current partner just cancels each other out. Neither true parent was there. If you were there picking up child, would it have been different? The child is being cared for by the grandparent cause the other parent was not available.
Be thankful that he is responsible and involved to be able to take the child to get medical attention.
If it's such an issue, have something in your agreement about details of when the child is sick etc etc etc. Have a right to first refusal blah, blah, blah.
But going there to cause problems isn't the right answer and it not in the best interest of a child who doesn't feel well and I think Hammer's answer was a selfish one!
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2010, 04:45 AM
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This has gone over the top.

The proper play is for all concerned to demonstrate some MATURITY.

The parent receiving the child should have been there to get the kid and taken him home to care for him. When the grandparent pulled a heavy with the spouse it was wrong, but not worth getting your shorts in a knot.

There ought to be an agreed, MATURE way of handling this in the future that provides that the parent or other family member can care for the kid when he is sick. Instead a shit storm was allowed to develop because the adults acted like clowns.

If a parent or an extended family member has an issue with a step parent doing the pickup, to the extent that the child becomes the rope in a tug of war, well that's just not MATURE is it?

Rather than focus on what did happen, these parents and other family members ought to be figuring out a way to deal with it next time, so no conflict arises from it.
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2010, 11:07 AM
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I agree with the majority of points that have been posted here but keeping in mind that this is not the first time this has happened and has been really hard to handle. My son clearly wanted to come HOME and he was not by any means bedridden. He was playing and reading books with my spouse in the waiting room for 25 minutes before the appointment.

The reason my spouse had gone to pick-up my son is because we had previously arranged a pick-up/drop-off at her work for later that evening and before that, my ex had offered to have him available that morning, if I wanted to drive down to get him.

The sole reason he was left in the care of his grandfather was because my ex's lack of a local support system for our son and she needed to go to work. She historical does not see my access time as important or even necessary, hence the application for sole custody, with access every other weekend.

The doctor gave my son prescription medication and advised that he should remain home from school for the next two days. This posed an issue for my ex and she would then either need to take my son back to her father's which is a 2 hour car ride from our area, or take the day off work.

Frankly, I think the only reason he was taken to the doctor's was because I had requested he be returned to our area during the week, so that he is not missing school unnecessarily because he is 2 hours away. I had even offer to stay home with him during her time.

I will be adding a right to first refusal to our settlement offer but I am a bit curious how this would work with parallel parenting? Any ideas?

Last edited by Pharah; 11-17-2010 at 11:48 AM.
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2010, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by representingself View Post
Kidnapping... seriously??

No third party has the authority to deliver the children to anyone/anywhere, without the express consent of the CUSTODIAL parent.
Ummm, grandpa HAS ABSOLUTELY NO AUTHORITY to withhold custody. And if mom instructs him to do so on her behalf it is 100% DENIAL OF ACCESS.

Quote:
Grandpa was acting under the AUTHORITY of the CUSTODIAL parent, and was simply acting as a means of transportation to see a Doctor... he was under no obligation to hand the minor child over to an additional third party.
I agree, that Grandpa doesn't have to give the kid to this mans wife (unless the court order allows for exchanges with 3rd parties). But the custodial parent doesn't have the right to arbitarily withhold access for any reason, period, end of story.

If this was me I showed up for my parenting time to get my kid the police would be showing up as Grandpa has absolutely ZERO authority over me. He isn't party to the agreement or court order. He is not the child's parent. He has absolutely no say in who looks after the child, when and how.

Quote:
And do what with it? Do you seriously think a Judge is going to waste his/her time reading bubble-gum receipts?
It isn't so much for the judge to read IT IS FOR THE DATE STAMPED PROOF that the NCP arrived at the prescribed exchange point and was denied access. The NCP can attach it as proof of attendance to an affidavit when they drag the CP in for contempt.

Quote:
See what I mean about over-reacting a little bit? Stop running around waving your "court order" like a lunatic, and take a deep, calming breath...
I am quite calm. And I am not waving the court order around at all. The court order exists for purposes just like this. It is to ensure that each parents rights are protected.

Quote:
Dude wasn't talking about continued issues with denying access... he was talking about two isolated incidents, where the child was sick... and the "primary parent" made a judgement call about single access visits.
It isn't the "primary parents" (really, primary parent ) decision to make. They cannot dictate when the NCP gets to exercise access. Should the NCP choose not to exercise their access due to communication from CP, then that is the NCP's choice. Should the NCP say "no, I think I can look after the child just as well", then guess what, the child is going with the NCP. Should the CP try to prevent it, I would drag them to court for contempt.

Quote:
Calling the police, trumped up contempt proceedings, and gum receipts.... are hardly the reaction that suits this particular situation...
I am not "trumping up" contempt proceedings. Here, and in situations that are similar, the CP's are inviting them upon themselves. The CP's do not say, "no you can't go with NCP because you are sick". And do you not see what a slipperly slope you would create if you did provide for such. You'd have bitter ex's using such circumstances as a weapon left and right to try and deny access without reprocussions. It is about the big picture here, not some narrow scope you seem to focus on.

Quote:
I think at this stage, a single, firm email, regarding make up time, is more than sufficient, with remarks made with regards to appropriate behaviour/language in the presence of the child.

Maybe even mention in said email... in a calm, and rational manner... that both parties should try to work towards negotiating an agreement for the next time when the child is not feeling well, approaching a scheduled access time... Then when said issue re-occurs (and it will), both parties will have a clear understanding of what is expected of them...
I agree with this point, but IMO, the CP should have contacted the NCP prior to this entire ordeal and said "X is sick today, is it possible for you to take X later this week instead?" and then followed it up with an email.

But I do agree that now NCP should be requesting make up time and requesting, in future, that such matters be discussed prior to parenting exchanges.

Quote:
Flying off the handle will do nothing more than exacerbate an already precarious situation.
I can't see where I flew off any handle, but meh, your perspective is your perspective.

Quote:
On a side note... your reaction surprised me HammerDad... I have come to expect better from you.
Not sure what surprised you. I am a firm believer in equality of parents and the importance of EACH parents parenting time. I feel that I am just as capable of providing a comfortable place for the child to recover and that my parenting skills are no less equal to that of my ex. I also believe that being a parent means looking after kids when they are both well and sick.

My ex would actually make comments about ensuring that I take my parenting time with my D5 even though she is sick. Because "being a parent isn't just when they are healthy" or "why should I be the only one to have to deal with D5 when she is sick."

See, it isn't that I am flying off the handle. I am just stating that neither CP or grandpa can tell the NCP when they are to take the child outside the order. I have always been one to follow the order and have argued here many times that the order is the order and unless it provides for sick clauses, or the parents agree otherwise, then you follow it. And it isn't fair IMO to cause the CP to be the only parent to deal with the kids when they are sick and that the NCP gets only healthy days. I think that would just cause some further bitterness from the CP to the NCP as they don't have to deal with the late night coughs or runny noses etc.
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2010, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by representingself View Post
There you go again, riding in like a warrior, waving his iron "court order".

After being advised that the child is ill, and not able to participate in access... your best solution is to show up, unannounced at the custodial parents' door-step, flapping your paperwork and a digital recorder?

Think THAT will go over well?
Meh, maybe not. But the LAST precedent I want set is that I will not take my parenting time because the child is sick. IMO, that is opening a door for the CP to take advantage of.

And the court order is a court order.

Quote:
That is EXACTLY what you are doing.... Throwing fuel on the fire!

I think you are beggining to lose sight of the fact that you are talking about a child here... a person... not a commodity to be tossed around because you have a piece of paper that says you are entitled to a specific time schedule...

In the real world, kids get sick... shit happens, and sometimes, as the ADULTS we need to put our feelings and opinions aside, and so called "rights" aside, and put the children's needs FIRST!
Right, kids get sick. But am as equally capable of looking a sick kid as anyone here or my ex. My D5 is just as comfortable at my place as my ex's.

And in my opinion, here the OP said that his wife stated that:

Quote:
his symptoms did not merit her being denied access to him
The child isn't on their death bed here. They aren't incapable of transportation (see trip to the dr). Yeah, the child is sick. But we've all dealt with sick children before and IMO being sick isn't reason in itself to deny access. A CP may request an alternate time and then the NCP should get it in writing. But to deny access because the child has a cold, maybe the flu....really? Is that the world we live in where we don't believe the NCP can do equally as good a job and keep the child just as comfortable as the CP.
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2010, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tugofwar View Post
and I think Hammer's answer was a selfish one!
I think it is selfish to believe that one can deny access because the child isn't feeling well and creates a horrible precedent for the future should the CP try and take advantage of the scenario.

I don't think it is selfish to believe that I am equally as capable of doing the things necessary to ensure my child feels better and is comfortable as the other parent. I do think it is rediculous to think that only the CP or the "primary parent" should be the one to look after the child if they are sick.

And also, there was no discussion of makeup time that I can see in this thread. So without agreeing to makeup time prior to all this there is absolutely no way in hell I am giving up my parenting time. Again, it creates a horrible precedent.

I am just shaking my head at the fact that people here somehow believe that just because a child is ill, that parenting time shouldn't happen. Maybe if they starting taking on the notion of "parenting time" vs "access" or "visitation" they would start to see where I am coming from. I am a parent, being a parent to my child.
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2010, 11:33 AM
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Also, in our arrangement there is currently no 'primary'. We have had joint custody, shared access with joint decision making since our separation. We have just recently been looking at parallel parenting and this has not been written into the order.
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2010, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharah View Post
I will be adding a right to first refusal to our settlement offer but I am a bit curious how this would work with parallel parenting? Any ideas?
I understand where you are coming from...We were trying to decide wether to try to add 1st right of refusal to our agreement... Seems fairly simple to me - but there are about 9 billion opinions about when it goes into effect, what situations should be included, how to organize it, etc. Seeing as it seems to be as clear as mud in a shared/joint situation I can't see how it would work in a parallel parenting situation. If one parent isn't interested in co-operating with the other parent it won't work. You would never know that they had been with grandpa(or other caregivers) until after the fact.

In the end the vast majority of people that commented on it, including a couple of lawyers, felt that what the other parent does on their time is completely up to them. If the other parent wants to leave the child(ren) with grandpa every day that they have access, then there is very little that you can do about it as long as the children aren't being harmed and 1stRR won't help the situation.

Is the other parent in your case is trying to play "keep away" from you with your child? Will send them anywhere they can in order to limit the possible time that you could have with them? In that case you might want to try to re-arrange or change the access.

By the way - I agree with HammerDad. Simply put... Step-parent and Grandpa were at the doctor's office with the child. At that time the child had to get back in a car and drive to someone's home. The child should have gone with the Step-parent to excersize their access time with their father (and following the court order). After Grandpa made the wrong decision and took the child with him then Dad should call and ask for make up time and tell Mom that in the future he would like to be involved in taking care of them when they are sick. I would do all of the documenting that HammerDad suggests (except I wouldn't call the police on Grandpa). But like everyone always says on this forum - document, document, document. I wouldn't want this pattern of access to be the norm when my child is sick child when they are sick. If it is a weird one-off situation then no harm done by documenting it. If it is a pattern, you will need some evidence to stop it in court.
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