Unusual case??

[donnel8]

I am looking for a little advice.

My wife and I are in the process of separating but have not really talked about the nitty gritty details yet. I am the primary caregiver for the most part as I am a teacher and take care of the kids (one is 8 and one is 2) until she gets home which is usually around 7-7:20pm. We have a nanny that lives with us and she takes care of our little guy throughout the day til 430 when I get in. My wife makes good cash roughly 115 000-120 000 and I am close to 87 000. I know I will probably going to have to give her half my pension for the last 10 years but I am hoping our investments in her name almost make it a wash.

If I have been the one that has cared for the kids for the past 6-7 years and she has shown little interest in being around other then jetting in at 7pm to put them to bed then am I entitled to 60 % access. I am sure we will have joint custody. We have a house but do not have a lot of equity in the house. She wants to keep the house and has thrown around a few rediculous ideas about buying me out and keeping the nanny.. I don't think I could afford to buy her out and would prefer to sell the house and both start fresh. I would go ape shit if she pushes for keeping the nanny though and I have to move out and leave my kids with her and the nanny!

Debt - we have a fair amount of debt 30 000 for me (mostly house stuff and trips for the family) and she has 25 000 (mostly for her shopping habit lol). Are we both liable for each other's debt? We have 30 000 with a financial advisor and I am wondering if I should ask for that money so we can start to settle up on some of the debts. If she continues to run up her credit cards am I still liable for repaying them until we formally separate?

Access - I think she will go for 60/40 in my favour because she has never really been around the kids but will I have to demonstrate and prove that I have been the primary caregiver? I am off all summer and holidays (March and Christmas), I take the kids to all of their extracurricular activities, practice music with my daughter, spend hours in the park, make dinner, clean up, do all the homework with her, do all the parent teacher interviews, just about everything.


Any other fathers also the primary caregiver? How did things turn out in your situation? So far we are totally civil and will put the kids first and not be petty...but the access and house might shake things up too much and push one of us over the edge.

Any help or suggestions are much appreciated.

[piggybanktoex]

First thing!

She will turn on you big time. Reasonable goes out the window the minute money comes into it. She is already wanting the house, the kids (over 60%), the nanny, and next your income to pay for it all. And she will really believe that she is entitled to it all.

You have a good chance to lock her down now with the 50% custody thing. Making less actually helps you big time here, especially since you have a existing pattern of being the prime-care giver.

Be careful brother, divorce can quickly become the biggest expense of your life.

Establish 50%-50% custody at the minimum, 39%-61% will cost one of you big bucks.

Or if you want the kids 60%+, make a fair deal on SS/CS (one that actually addresses need and not greed) that allows her to keep most of her money.

Don't get into a position where you are beholding to her. Get the high ground and then be reasonable. If you establish 60%+ custody, and point out what it will cost her, she will be motivated to deal. Don't trust your STBX to be fair or she may nail your ***** to the wall.

Trust me on this. That kind of thinking cost me my house, my job, some of my health, my sanity (on some days) and left me feeling screwed over big time.

[blinkandimgone]

Take all replies with a grain of salt understanding that some here are very VERY bitter and unable to separate their situation from anyone else's.

You are both responsible for the debt regardless of who caused it during the marriage. One of the first things you will want to do is separate your finances if you haven't already and document that you have done so so you don't become responsible for any additional debt she accumulates after you separate.

I don't have any advice to offer on the custody other than to search the forums as there are lots and lots of threads by both mothers and fathers in your situation. Welcome to the forum!

[donnel8]

Thanks for the quick response. I don't know if was unclear but I will be getting 60% access not her.

[Mess]

piggybanktotheex is harsh, but it is good advice all the same.

First the kids: "Primary Caregiver" is open to debate. In every court case I've looked at, the judge only accepted the term if it was a clear distinction between a stay-at-home parent and working parent. When both parents worked, or in rare cases when both parents were home (like a working from home situation) then parenting was considered equal.

You have a strong argument that the children have formed a stronger bond with you, but seriously, with a nanny taking care of them during the day, you are really going to raise eyebrows in the courtroom claiming to be "primary caregiver". That term woud apply equally to the nanny. Now, I know I am hitting a nerve here, but take my word for it, your ex's lawyer will be all over this and challenging you like crazy.

Now let's back up a bit. Anything between 60/40 is considered 50/50 by all common law, court decisions, legislation, tax rules, etc. So you are not gaining anything legally by shooting for 60%, and if you shoot for 61% you are going to have a massive fight on your hands.

If you want full custody, then come right out and say it, and make a case for it, showing that it is in the children's best interests. If you aren't a stay-at-home parent, then you will have a hard time showing this.

Meanwhile, if you make an offer to your ex for Shared Parenting and Joint Custody, this can be without prejudice (meaning it won't affect anything you seek in court) but you can test the waters and try to negotiate a reasonable co-operative parenting situation. Your ex's option is to agree, or fight you for full custody, and that's a fight she will have a really hard time winning.

Once you establish a premise of Shared Parenting, make sure she understands that this can be anything between 60/40 and you can create a schedule that suits the children's needs and makes the transition as easy as possible for them.

I should say that I was in almost exactly your situation, I was leaving work at 2:30 to pick up each child after school/daycare, caring for them until 6:30 when my ex got home, we had dinner, then I played with them while she talked on the phone with friends and relatives all evening, and I put them to bed. I covered all the sick days, which was at least 2 days each per month per child, meaning I lost at least 2 months worth of working days per year.

I could have fought for the term "Primary Caregiver" but what would that have gotten me, except for my ex digging in her heels even deeper? We immediately went with a shared parenting schedule, she became a better more attentive parent, and I was able to put in more hours at work. I am at 59% with my teenage daughter, which is my daughter's choice, and 50% with our youngest.


As far as debt goes, it is done this way: Add up your debt and assets on the marriage day. Then add up your debt and assets on separation date. Subtract each net, for a net of what you accrued during marriage. She does the same. Pensions are complex, but basicly it gets valued and the amount added to your net worth. Her RRSPs are totalled, less the tax she would pay when cashing them in, and this is added to her net.

So your net during marriage and her net during marriage represent the family assets. If it is negative (one or both of you has more debt and no net asset) then you just use 0. You would not split a net debt.

You would split the family net assets 50/50.

The house and any joint accounts/lines of credit would be split 50/50. There is a fine distinction here, which would apply if you were in the red and in deep debt, like I say, each of your debts would just make you at 0, even if one was higher. This could be disputed if there was a clear unfairness, like if the debt was to pay for the nanny or something, but generally you don't split net debt.

[piggybanktoex]

Understand of course that Blinkandimgone is, I believe, the receiver of SS & CS. Always consider the source of what is considered fair.

Not for one second am I accusing anyone here of being unfair (in their eyes), but understand carefully that the system is bias against men. Also realize that CS would be very expensive to your spouse and that can suddenly make her a very loving and attentive mother.

It may not be all about the money, but is sure seems like it.

[donnel8]

Thanks again for the advice! I have already noticed her magically becoming more attentive and even coming home early from work. She does still go away on business at least once a month though. Will this work in my favour that she is frequently away on business?

I think our son can go into daycare now and there is no need for the nanny. If I am finished work by 3:30, is there anything that says that I cannot go and pick up my kids or do they have to sit in after school care because her highness decides to work till 6:45 most nights?
Thanks!

Anyone know a good lawyer in Toronto?

Did anyone use collaborative family law when agreeing on all of the details?

[piggybanktoex]

50%-50% (60%-40%) is good. Try to live fairly close to each other, it helps the kids.

If you do gain the upper hand, ie. receive SS & CS, keep it reasonable and allow the higher earner to keep the benefits of a better paying position. This could go a long way to keeping her civil in the future.

Need, not greed.

[Mess]

As far as collaborative law, etc, I would say, please don't get your heart set on one method until you begin exploring the situation with your ex.

It's possible she has been thinking this through and doing research as well, and as soon as you say "within 60/40" she will be fine and you can settle with no fuss. Or she may freak out, or anything in between.

I've read some horror stories about collaborative law lasting months, costing thousands, and going nowhere. For other people it works. Start out with a sense of where you and your ex are at, and what, if any, are the sticking points. If the two of you can come up with a rough draft between yourselves, and then just get your lawyers to run the final numbers through software, you could possibly get out of this for under a couple of thousand. Or it could last for years, cost you each tens of thousands, and you could be in court over stupid details just because you are bitter and can't bring yourselves to agree.

Please read "Tug of War" by Justice Harvey Brownstone, an Ontario Family Court judge. Also read "Surviving Your Divorce" by Michael Cochrane, an Ontario divorce lawyer. Personally, I found that while both books covered all the material very well and said much of the same thing, "Tug of War" is the book you want your ex to read. "Surviving your Divorce" is more the book you don't want your ex to read. You should read them both before you see a lawyer, then you will know what questions to ask.

[standing on the sidelines]

try an not make the nanny part of this divorce. She is a free human being who can go or stay with whatever one of you she wants. No court can order her to do anything in regards to your divorce. If you want her that bad (or do not want your ex to have her which i think is more your point) then offer her more money.