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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2016, 11:03 AM
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Default Trial outcome re: custody/parenting - parental alienation court identified

Seeking sharing experiences/wisdom regarding:
trial outcome re: custody/parenting when parental alienation court identified


Prior link:
http://www.ottawadivorce.com/forum/f...toronto-16599/

Note: I have steadfastly pursued 50/50 shared parenting arrangement, until PA became substantial issue, then realizing damage associated and have not been "forcing myself on children" for parenting.
IMO: very long, damaging, and unnecessary (controlling) strategy employed by OP.

Key points (5 yrs. distilled):
- married 13 yrs., separated >5yrs., 2 children (now d14, s12)
- SA created (final, final version created, OP would not sign)
- 50/50 parenting existed post-separation (26 mths. with d, 16 mths. with s)
- co-operative co-parenting NOT followed by OP, PA court identified (custody and access evaluation, psychologist called CAS with complaint, and identified by judge) few years ago
- reunification counselling not pursued by OP (for children): since this professional called CAS with complaint against OP
- contempt finding against OP for withholding access to s
- OP could purge contempt finding if promoted access as ordered
- assault allegation against me by OP, allegation of assault of s. during parenting time
- allegation of breach of undertaking, 2nd charge = no communication with kids (20 months)
- vindication: found not guilty of 2 charges beyond reasonable doubt
- family court: reunification ordered (3rd time), trial ordered - motions not effective in dealing with our situation (multi-year)
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Old 07-03-2016, 12:02 PM
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What a mess. The big issue you had with your ex back in 2012 was involving hockey. It appears that you've run the gauntlet of typical nasty family law (false accusations, parental alienation, etc.)

Trial should have happened years ago IMO. I think the viability of shared parenting in your case will be decided and one of you will not be happy with outcome.
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Old 07-03-2016, 12:54 PM
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^^^ Good recount of history Arabian

As we all realize, parenting is a lifelong commitment.
Short-sighted co-parenting decisions, carry long term custody and parenting consequences.

Accordingly, I have integrated (as best I can) the:

a reasonable parent,
b "in the childrens best interests", and
c maximum contact principle

Initially (naively) believing that people comply with court orders, and actions are tied to what's best for your child/ren: with time, I felt that the situation would "right itself".

Though initially post separation was reasonably amicable since the children enjoyed a 4 min. walk between their parents houses, and 50/50 parenting was the norm; including first right of parenting refusal (co-parenting ideal)

You called it: running the gauntlet. 5+ yrs. and regrettably the situation has not been righted. This is NOT from lack of concerted effort. Yes, like many, a small fortune spent on lawyers (family and criminal), multiple motions with orders. In past 3 yrs., 6 orders remained uncomplied with. Holding OP (high-conflict) to uncomplied court orders (and contempt finding for withholding access) resulted in 2 charges against me. (backlash)
Yes, I am financially depleted and forced to self-rep out of necessity.
Last financial concerted expenditure was supporting criminal lawyer.

Considering age of children, and severity (and entrenched level) of PA: I am aware from Canlii case review; of options available for consideration by court for custody. Reality: OP encourages, and maintains conflict, in an effort to be rewarded with sole custody of children.

So, yes agreed: if both parents seek sole custody of children, one party is certain to be disappointed at trial.

My question to the ODF community, whom possess great wisdom and practical experience: what trial results have you had/seen relating to custody/parenting when PA has been court identified?
Note: OP found to have sought upper hand in Family Court through the incident identified. (as result would be sole custody of s.)

Key points:

- I have been supporting 50/50 parenting, and never have sought sole custody; OP has sought sole custody 6 times
- 3 rounds of reunification counselling seem to show very limited benefits
- OP and I utilize Our Family Wizard communication, and I routinely "ask" for parenting time with kids, and document all instances, or lack thereof
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Old 07-03-2016, 12:55 PM
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You go for sole custody with supervised access for her. I have seen cases like yours where the dad does get sole custody. Obviously, you need to explain you case and show if you give the mother any room she will ignore court orders and attempt to destroy your relation with the kids.

Tell the judge this too:
"the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior"

Judges like that line...

Last edited by Links17; 07-03-2016 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 07-03-2016, 01:38 PM
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^^^ Appreciate your response Links17

Ironically, I used this very quotation, as it is a universally resounding comment.
The CC/Coordinated Case Mgmt. judge, seemingly acknowledging this and in another direct quote I stated, repeated:
Actions do speak louder than words, and (addresssing) to the OP...
You will have to convince the OP (me) of the sincerity of what you are saying.

Sole custody: it was identified to us that at trial, it could go either way if both parties sought sole custody, and that at 14 yrs. old, a court order for custody is not as common (not verbatim), whereas it is more common for a 12 yr. old

Or as I understand it: as kids age, court orders for custody possess less influence and weight. Though there seems no hard and fast rule for precise age...
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Old 07-03-2016, 02:49 PM
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I agree with Links.

Whatever happened to people asking for "make-up time" when access was denied? Wonder if you could request this. Perhaps a summer without the mother in the picture would help the PA. Is a trial date set or do you now have to go through the futile process of case conferences again?
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Old 07-03-2016, 03:39 PM
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^^^ Arabian on parenting make-up time - asked for this

Document, document, document!

Had uncomplied with parenting/access time (as ordered) meticulously documented (what was court ordered, I asked if OP would be dropping off kids as ordered, or if I could assist with return transportation).
Continuous response was child says not interested in seeing you.
As we all have heard: the kids don't drive the bus regarding custody orders.
Parents are expected to make reasonable efforts to have children comply to access orders. (These reasonable adult efforts were absent)

So, in motion I in fact asked specifically for this make up time.
(x days for d, and y days for y) Summer time ironically provided as practical make up time. In my situation the PA is real and prominent factor which "everyone" seems to have issue with, preventing other issues from being addressed.

Put another way: the situation is evident, non-compliance of custody and access orders is proven (contempt finding), however; (and this is my frustration), there is no easy/direct "solution/response" to a parent who undermines the OP's custody/access time, when (court identified) PA is present.

A custody flip is certainly more dramatic, though, I am inquiring and asking for the community to share personal experiences with all custody options when PA is real, and has been court identified. (and the OP does NOT comply with court orders - and has already been found in contempt for withholding access)
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Old 07-03-2016, 04:06 PM
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This is a case which I have posted in the past about extreme parental alienation. Mother lost custody to father (with police enforcement) and mother only allowed access to children after basically getting the "green light" from experts in PA (counselling for mother).

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...resultIndex=13

If there are any similarities to your situation you might consider using this case as reference. I believe there are other cases on PA which might be of benefit to you should you decide to seek sole custody.

The mother went on to try to appeal the decision (and refused to get counselling)

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/do...14onca436.html

Nut job or what....

Last edited by arabian; 07-03-2016 at 04:09 PM. Reason: appeal case
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Old 07-03-2016, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
This is a case which I have posted in the past about extreme parental alienation. Mother lost custody to father (with police enforcement) and mother only allowed access to children after basically getting the "green light" from experts in PA (counselling for mother).

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...resultIndex=13

If there are any similarities to your situation you might consider using this case as reference. I believe there are other cases on PA which might be of benefit to you should you decide to seek sole custody.

The mother went on to try to appeal the decision (and refused to get counselling)

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/do...14onca436.html

Nut job or what....
Firstly, Thanks Arabian for sharing the above cases!

Agreed! - interesting on point judicial observation, (without a psych assessment: this is news to me):
[231] The court is mindful that the maximum contact principle requires children to have as much contact with both parents as is consistent with their best interests. The court must address each parent's willingness to foster that contact. Mother's past conduct shows she is not willing to foster the childrenís contact with their father, with the therapist or being able to address her own mental illness. While I do not have direct evidence as to the motherís mental state, I find that I am able to draw reasonable inferences as to the very troubling mental state of Ms. D.G.1 based on the evidence of the witnesses and professionals who have testified before me.

In my situation, my children are older (now 14 and 12) and actual PA has been court identified. Although the CAS reviewed the case, at the complaint of the psychologist who identified it was in their mandate to move and offer protection to the children; the CAS found no harm to the children.
My inquiry to the CAS revealed they undergo no formal training in PA, nor are they able to recommend a qualifed professional. So how is it they can make a statement then that there is no harm to the children?

Concern being: despite court order, older children (with encouragement), may simply vote with their feet. This can present as very awkward: now, where is my child, and police enforcement can inject major drama into situation.
So, there is no clear cut method. I noticed this case had a Dr. whom made recsommendations.

Some key parenting common points (from case you identified):

[186] Access is not awarded or withheld either to punish or reward parental behaviour.[4] However, sometimes a parentís conduct is so outrageous that a court will find some way to deny custody or access.[5]

[187] The authorities provide that a parentís conduct may affect his or her ability to care for a child in different ways. A parentís conduct may pose a sufficient physical or emotional risk to a child that access should be limited, or, in an extreme case, denied. In conduct leading to alienation a parent may consciously or subconsciously take steps to eliminate the child from the other parent and has thus cause a breakdown in the important relationship between parent and child.

[188] Children have the right to maximum contact with both parents insofar as it is consistent with their best interests. That one parent will promote contact with the other parent while the other parent discourages access, is a relevant consideration in a custody or access case.[6]
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:23 PM
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Here is a recent case from BC. You might find it helpful as it goes into detail about "alienation" as opposed to "estrangement" (which many people seem to get confused).

Lots of good information in this case. Actually there seem to be more cases published from BC on the subject.

https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/do...&resultIndex=3
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