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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2017, 01:12 AM
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Default Trial #3! Anyone had more ? :)

Hello, everybody.

I do not expect you all remember me but here I am - still alive
I can see there is still a lot of same people what is sad I should say. I hope you understand what I meant...
I think it is fare to say - the family court is life changing experience and not in a good one.

As some may know I am scheduled for another trial on Monday.
Yes, that is correct trial #3 to be specific.

This trial should be the last one (fingers crossed). Trial about changing order 2014 ONSC 915 (CanLII) At least this time we got some money upfront 2015 ONSC 3684 (CanLII) even thou there is close to 30k in not paid cost...

So Mom will try to get unsupervised visitation and I will try finally get our lives back and asked for no access. You would think someone who lost 2 trials would never go to #3 when there is a possibility to end up with no access at all. Well, apparently not a case and honestly, I think that what she wants but need some excuse so she can say well it was not me - judge decided.

You would think I should be able to do it with my eyes closed. Well, unfortunately, it's not getting easier

So why do I wrote this post? Just want one more time to remind everybody that if you have a chance to stay away from the family court - please do. There are no winners there...

Regards,
WD
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Old 05-04-2017, 03:33 AM
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sorry to hear you are going through this again. Hey you should have your law degree by now! You certainly have lots of courtroom experience... and the drudgery that goes along with all the preparation.

I know what it is like to go back, time and time again. Yes I was successful but it wasn't pleasant.

You must be on first-names with the courthouse people by now!

Hope things go your way and you can keep a sense of humor throughout things.

Kindest regards,
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Old 05-04-2017, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
sorry to hear you are going through this again. Hey you should have your law degree by now! You certainly have lots of courtroom experience... and the drudgery that goes along with all the preparation.

I know what it is like to go back, time and time again. Yes I was successful but it wasn't pleasant.

You must be on first-names with the courthouse people by now!

Hope things go your way and you can keep a sense of humor throughout things.

Kindest regards,
Thank you, Arabian
I did not get law degree but I definitely could and was encouraged to do so multiple times. I just do not believe I can do thins kind of things... + I am too old for school

I even was invited to speak at Windsor Law as part of NSRLP but thanks god they let me go after finding out I am still in court

I am not on first names since people change but there is much more people know me than I know them which is kind of weird )))

WD
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WorkingDAD View Post
So Mom will try to get unsupervised visitation and I will try finally get our lives back and asked for no access. You would think someone who lost 2 trials would never go to #3 when there is a possibility to end up with no access at all. Well, apparently not a case and honestly, I think that what she wants but need some excuse so she can say well it was not me - judge decided.
Good to see you WD. My case was similar to yours in certain ways (abduction, allegations, etc). Your caselaw was used in my proceedings and I truly believe it made a difference in my case. For that, I thank you.

Has your ex tried to better herself in any ways since last trial. She may come in with a ton of material proving how she's improved her life and outlook on the situation. I'm not sure that supervised access is meant to "stick" for a long period of time.

Quote:
So why do I wrote this post? Just want one more time to remind everybody that if you have a chance to stay away from the family court - please do. There are no winners there
I have continued that for you here on the forums. I encourage people to stay out of the system and settle. Most recently a fellow poster will allow close to 50% but not totally. All the father wants is 50/50. If you can believe it she'd rather go to trial in the absence of any abuse, addictions, etc just to deny that equal relationship. What a waste of the courts time. You're right..there are no winners. Just some that get hurt more than others.

I wish you all the best and I very much look forward to reading some more amazing WD caselaw!
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:41 AM
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hi there. I'm somewhat new here but have heard about you quite often and have read your case.

I know supervised access is meant to be a temporary thing and if mom can show she's changed her ways and has had some counselling and parenting courses with supervised access notes in her favour I don't see how she would not get expanded access. Only thin that comes to mind is possibilty that she may be abduct the kids but I believe she cannot travel without passport which would likely be in your position anyway.

I'm not sure if you can get no access order unless she's missing lots of visits and child is not enjoying visits or she's discussing adult issues at visits.

at least you have a good reputation with the courts.

can never be too old for school.. could become lawyer and help others..
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:04 AM
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Has your ex tried to better herself in any ways since last trial.
That is the jist of the trial and the major question that needs to be answered by her to the court.

In reviewing the order that has spawned this unprecedented 3rd trial:

Quote:
1. The Father is to have sole custody of the child;

2. The present order of supervised access to the child shall continue;

3. The Mother is found in contempt of the order of Pazaratz J. dated November 9, 2011.

4. Pursuant to the Family Law Rules to enforce my finding of contempt, I sentence The Mother to 6 months of probation. The terms of her probation being that she shall comply with all the terms of probation as set out below :
a. She is to engage in counselling or therapy in order to deal with her blind obsession with The Father and her search to prove that he is abusive to their child;

b. She is to not speak negatively about the child’s father during access periods;

c. She shall not feed the child during access, other than small snacks;

d. She shall not change the child’s clothing;
5. The Mother may return to court in order to seek expanded access only after she has evidence that she has successfully completed her counselling and therapy sessions to the satisfaction of the court.
The onus now falls on the mother to demonstrate to the court that she has purged the contempt. This is no small feet for a lawyer to do let alone a self-represented litigant. The "satisfaction of the court" is a very high test to meet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingFather32 View Post
She may come in with a ton of material proving how she's improved her life and outlook on the situation. I'm not sure that supervised access is meant to "stick" for a long period of time.
Material != (does not equal) Evidence

Furthermore, the test for the evidence for counseling and/or therapy has a pile of very complex and sophisticated rules on top of it. It needs to conform with:

1. Rules 4.1.01 (1) and 53 of the Rules of Civil Procedure and Rule 20.1 of the Family Law Rules.

2. Their clinical practice guidelines and other medical legislation in the Jurisdiction of Ontario.

Qualifying an expert before the court is not a walk in the park. Nor is qualifying the evidence of an expert. In addition, expert evidence is often treated as opinioned evidence. The ultimate (and only) trier of fact is the judge. So, as stated in the order above... The evidence to any change needs to meet the satisfaction of the court which encompasses both #1 and #2.

But, in consideration that by the time this makes it to the 3rd trial it will have been 3 years, 2 months, 20 days since this order clearly something has been amiss with the mother's position.

And Justice Pazaratz confirms this in an order in 2015...

Quote:
[23] Within months of Justice Harper’s February 18, 2014 order, the Applicant started returning to court claiming she had taken all necessary counselling and seeking a radical change in the current order. The Applicant’s materials and strategies were confusing. At times she had counsel. At times she initiated and then withdrew her requests.
I think it is safe to assume that this pattern of behaviour has continued to this date and the next justice will have the same issues that Justice Pazaratz, Master Jean, Justice Harper and Justice Chappel (in all had with the mother. Although this matter is not a "slam dunk" for the father.

Quote:
Justice Chappel said this about the mother:

I have concerns, however, regarding his sister, the mother in question, given the Respondent’s uncontroverted evidence that the mother in question has only supervised access to her son due to concerns that she intended to abduct the child. Given this evidence, I consider it necessary in the best interests of the children to include a term in the order that she not be left alone with either child at any time.
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...5onsc2409.html

That is all a very steep wall to climb. You better bring a lot of rope. Either you will get over the wall or hang yourself trying. 3rd strike and you are out.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by trinton View Post
I know supervised access is meant to be a temporary thing and if mom can show she's changed her ways and has had some counselling and parenting courses with supervised access notes in her favour I don't see how she would not get expanded access.
A reasonable person would be able to achieve what you are suggesting but, the real question the court has to address is: Is this litigant mother taken the necessary clinical steps to become reasonable. The compounding factors of "abuse" and "planned abduction" need to be considered together in this matter. Has the mother gotten the necessary counselling to meet the objectives that I outlined above?

Time does not heal all wounds. Had the mother in this matter followed what was ordered to purge her contempt the matter would have been either settled at a conference year ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinton View Post
Only thin that comes to mind is possibilty that she may be abduct the kids but I believe she cannot travel without passport which would likely be in your position anyway.
Those are incorrect assumptions. The country of Canada does not have an exit strategy. It is up to the receiving country to verify if a parent is allowed to travel with a child. There is no interrupting party from Canada. The case-on-point that was presented with regard to this issue was the matter of Stephen Watkins who's children were abducted by their mother and taken over the US border and flown to Germany and then Poland.

The order is so tightly written for supervised access is written with those considerations and a pile of others. It is not like the court found it to be an "assumption". On the weight of the evidence they made a finding that the mother was indeed planning an abduction. It was not a mere allegation made by the father. It had significant evidence behind it and not just an "anxiety" or "assumption".

Quote:
Originally Posted by trinton View Post
I'm not sure if you can get no access order unless she's missing lots of visits and child is not enjoying visits or she's discussing adult issues at visits.
Again, this falls on the shoulders of the mother to present this evidence. But, if you review the contempt order there are a number of things the mother has to demonstrate to the satisfaction of the court. Good access is only one. Medical treatment is the other. A lot stems from the mother's "blind obsession with The Father and her search to prove that he is abusive to their child" and has nothing to really do with the access visits. Behaving for 2 hours does not weigh as heavy as a confirmed abduction attempt and a "blind obsession" and abusive conduct.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
Material != (does not equal) Evidence
Precisely. That's why I chose the word "materials" carefully because I bet my bottom dollar that his ex will only have that to show....manufactured material.

Following WD's case, from a psychological standpoint, his ex seems to have developed (or always had) a sense of "learned helplessness". She has learned to be the victim when it's not justified and in fact, created herself. She has an extremely "external locus of control", meaning that she cannot take responsibility for her actions .. always someone else's fault.

I highly doubt she completed all of the counseling/therapy required to meet the tests of the court and even if she did, I just see her shooting herself in her foot a million different ways.

Not to mention this is about the kids, who surely are thriving at the moment in WD's care without all the alienation, negativity and shenanigans that his ex is accustomed to.

This will be a good Canlii read.
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Old 05-04-2017, 12:31 PM
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I'm sorry that you're back but wish you the best of luck (preparation, etc) in your upcoming trial. My husband is headed to trial next week too.
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Old 05-04-2017, 02:46 PM
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Hi WD, you are legendary on these forums. Sorry to hear that your having to go back for #3. I am headed towards #1. Senseless, as I've made several OTS.

Good luck and much respect.
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