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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2013, 04:29 PM
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Default Hostile OCL agent (lawyer)

Hi all, quick question and let me know if I should post elsewhere..

went to firts settlement conference and felt like I was getting railroaded by the OCL agent and found her to be quite hostile. She only read off her notes from the one disclosure meeting, had another meeting with my son after that disclosure meeting which I was not aware of? (standard?)

anyhow - can my son ask for a new agent if this one is not helpful?

thx

H
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2013, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Harold Callahan View Post
Hi all, quick question and let me know if I should post elsewhere..

went to firts settlement conference and felt like I was getting railroaded by the OCL agent and found her to be quite hostile. She only read off her notes from the one disclosure meeting, had another meeting with my son after that disclosure meeting which I was not aware of? (standard?)

anyhow - can my son ask for a new agent if this one is not helpful?

thx

H
I should also add that my son told the OCL agent that his mother threatened to leave him here and move back to her home country if he told the lawyer he wanted 50/50 access. My son has not asked for 50/50 access and as a result the OCL agent has recommeded against it. My son and I have been enjoying this 50/50 arrangment for over a year now. How do get the OCL lawyer to take this seriously..
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-02-2013, 06:37 PM
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Hi: we had OCL in for their observance of our family recently. She interviewed me and my partner for 1 hour each. There is soooooo much I forgot to mention during the interview but all of it is in the court documents she was given.

My question is this: do the OCL investigators do a thorough reading of the court documents? When we were interviewing I made reference to them and she said she hadn't reviewed them yet, which came as a surprise.

Also, is it worthwhile to call her up and let her know something really important we forgot to mention in the interview?

Thanks!
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:54 AM
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My question is this: do the OCL investigators do a thorough reading of the court documents? When we were interviewing I made reference to them and she said she hadn't reviewed them yet, which came as a surprise.
Hi!

Don't expect the OCL to be knowledgeable of your case or to take it upon themselves to try to see your point of view. Firstly, they are most likely swamped and involved in other cases. Second, they are supposed to represent the children's voice and they don't really care about you in some fundamental ways.

As is the case I think mostly in life, you're your own best supporter so if you think something is important, let the OCL know.

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Also, is it worthwhile to call her up and let her know something really important we forgot to mention in the interview?
In my case there were some very, very objectionable accusations brought to the OCL's attention and I emailed them to say that my perspective was available and forthright if they so needed, but honestly I don't think they cared or that it mattered as my feedback was not sought.

Depends though maybe on what you forgot?

On a side note, being the new partner of someone going through family disputes is tough, but can make you a stronger couple. I wish you all the best.
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Old 09-03-2013, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrustratedPartner View Post
Hi: we had OCL in for their observance of our family recently. She interviewed me and my partner for 1 hour each. There is soooooo much I forgot to mention during the interview but all of it is in the court documents she was given.

My question is this: do the OCL investigators do a thorough reading of the court documents? When we were interviewing I made reference to them and she said she hadn't reviewed them yet, which came as a surprise.

Also, is it worthwhile to call her up and let her know something really important we forgot to mention in the interview?

Thanks!
Assessors are only given roughly 20 hours to conduct a family assessment.
It's no through, it doesn't look under the skin.
Generally from the reports I have from the people on here who have shared privately and those I have helped. The report is simply a restatement of what the parents say about each other.
Slanted in one direction or the other.
In my case a 50/50 fully involved father, being recommended to have 38% and sole custody to mom.
Mom's accusations written as if they were true, and my concerns dismissed.
Mom's negative behaviour understood and in someways accepted and justified all biased on lies.
My positive behaviour understated. My questioning of procedure and process interpreted as controlling.
My "requests" for information, turned into "demands" and threats of court action.
At the end of the day the judge didn't even mention the OCL recommendations in the reasons for his judgement. Thats how little weight he gave to them.
I will say one thing, the only semi neural part of the recommendations were the observations. She didn't have a problem with my parenting.
That said she still sided with mom.
And actually condoned mom withholding the children.
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:02 AM
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^^^^ Pretty much my situation too, but the OCL didn't condone her denying access. However, proposing a 38% custody situation was a terrible, terrible injustice to the children.
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:16 AM
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I totally agree, their is only one reason to recommend 38% access situation and it is simply a financial one. Keeping parents below the 40% threshold is child abuse. As it doesn't listen to the BIOC and provides no support for the children when they are with the 38% parent.
Are there others that this has happened too?
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Old 09-03-2013, 02:00 PM
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Assessors are only given roughly 20 hours to conduct a family assessment.
Private assessors are similar in that they only really spend about 15-25 hours with the parents and more often than not less time with the most important people in any custody and access "assessment" - THE CHILDREN.

A 45 minute in-home assessment by OCL / Section 30 can turn into effectively 20 pages of nonsense. How in 45 minutes can someone determine the parent-child/ren dyad?

Also, what impact does the court matters have on the family that is under "investigation"? I always find it interesting that the expectations of these assessments that the parents will be without stress which would have a reciprocal impact on the subjects being studied. I have not seen one assessment properly address the question that Justices ask quite often in case law:

What impact does this whole court proceeding have on the two parents in dispute? Is what we are seeing here in the assessment really two people thrown into an unnatural adversarial system (court) "fighting it out in court" really these people or what the "system" has created of them? How much of the nonsense is driven by the anxiety that naturally comes with any custody and access dispute?

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Originally Posted by involveddad75 View Post
It's not through, it doesn't look under the skin.
In fact, most of them focus on completely irrelivant materials and create piles upon piles of additional irrelivant material. I have heard a number of justices tell both clients in a matter that no judge will sift through a 200+ page custody and access report.

I have pulled 30 files for which a private assessment was done. Of the 20 assessments all were over 150 pages. Of the 150 pages, only a fraction of the content was referenced by the justice in making the final order. In fact, for most situations only 5-10% of the assessors recommendations were considered or implemented in any contested access dispute I have seen.

You will hear from these "assessors" quite often the most egocentric statements such as (for example):

"I have done about 200 of these assessments and the judge always goes with my recommendations."

In my observation, statistically (based on my 30 case viewpoint) the vast majority of justices don't implement the vast majority of the recommendations from assessors. They almost always change them significantly... So much that it makes me wonder why people don't always just challenge the position of these "experts".

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Originally Posted by involveddad75 View Post
Generally from the reports I have from the people on here who have shared privately and those I have helped. The report is simply a restatement of what the parents say about each other.
I can confirm the same on my review of case files I pull. Generally, the assessor wastes a significant amount of time re-stating what has often been alleged in an affidavit. What is more shocking really is that they try to assess the "truthfulness" of the two parties which is well beyond their mandate to assist the JUSTICE whom is the only person whom can try a fact as a fact.

As soon as an assessor makes an assessment or statement that they believe one party over the other they are identifying their bias. I have not seen a single report from OCL/Section 30 that isn't biased against one (or both) of the parents in some way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by involveddad75 View Post
Slanted in one direction or the other.
I have seen the same thing too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by involveddad75 View Post
In my case a 50/50 fully involved father, being recommended to have 38% and sole custody to mom.
Truisms explode out of this statement... It is unfortunate but, you challenged the report and like I have seen time-and-time again, if someone challenges the report the justice will order totally opposite to the recommendations of the OCL/Section 30.


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Originally Posted by involveddad75 View Post
Mom's accusations written as if they were true, and my concerns dismissed.
Assessments often provide little value to the court in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by involveddad75 View Post
Mom's negative behaviour understood and in someways accepted and justified all biased on lies.
"She didn't know what else to do in the situation..."

Despite having legal counsel, etc... Emotional reasoners can easily manipulate "feelings motivated" custody and access evaluators. But, remember, justices are based on FACTS not FEELINGS. If someone is well versed in logic (similar to WorkingDad) the "FEELINGS", "BELIEFS" and "NONSENSE" can easily be cross examined with devastating impacts.

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Originally Posted by involveddad75 View Post
My positive behaviour understated. My questioning of procedure and process interpreted as controlling.
I always warn everyone about the "controlling" ontology in family law situation. What defines "control"? I prefer how Justice Pazaratz approached the issues of "control" in that very famously cited case law on this site...

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Originally Posted by involveddad75 View Post
My "requests" for information, turned into "demands" and threats of court action.
Which falls under the nonsense catagory of "control". But, if the other parent threatens court action, access restrictions... It isn't "control" but, their inability to "know what else to do"... It is a common pattern... easily defeated on the trying of actual evidence and not "feelings".

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Originally Posted by involveddad75 View Post
At the end of the day the judge didn't even mention the OCL recommendations in the reasons for his judgement. Thats how little weight he gave to them.
More people need to realize that they are "recommendations" and that the court is ultimately whom decides. Don't fall for the controlling fear tactics of OCL / Section 30 who will tell you that the courts "always go with their recommendations". Those people are generally egocentric nutjobs who don't want their record tarnished or are scared to take the stand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by involveddad75 View Post
I will say one thing, the only semi neural part of the recommendations were the observations. She didn't have a problem with my parenting.

That said she still sided with mom.

And actually condoned mom withholding the children.
But, still rewarded her conduct with a recommendation of 38% access against you. That kind of nonsense needs to stop in the OCL. The obstruction of access to children by a parent holds significant weight by a justice. I have no idea why these "experts" don't realize this. I hypothesize it is because the vast majority of them don't read current case law... They are way behind the times in what the court orders so their recommendations are generally 10-15 years behind the time.

Good Luck!
Tayken
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-03-2013, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by involveddad75 View Post
I totally agree, their is only one reason to recommend 38% access situation and it is simply a financial one. Keeping parents below the 40% threshold is child abuse. As it doesn't listen to the BIOC and provides no support for the children when they are with the 38% parent.
Are there others that this has happened too?
There are many... The problem is that most people fall victim to the egocentric statements from OCL / Section 30 assessors who try to tell people (or instruct directly) that the judge *always* goes with their recommendations.

99% of OCL/Section 30 assessments are not necessary in my opinion.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 09-03-2013, 02:12 PM
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99% of OCL/Section 30 assessments are not necessary in my opinion.

Good Luck!
Tayken
I agree with this Tayken. The assessment was totally unnecessary in my case, considering the fact that I spent years at home with my children before the break up. It was easy for anyone to read/see/hear that all I requested was to be an equal parent.

The only thing that I thought the OCL was going to do was make someone listen to our case, to force the mother (in my case) to actually deal with someone who would be listening to the children. In many ways I was wrong.

However, in hindsight, I am very unsure a judge would have done any better although the time frame for a decision probably would have been narrowed.
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