Ottawa Divorce .com Forums


User CP

New posts

Advertising

  Ottawa Divorce .com Forums > Main Category > Divorce & Family Law

Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 11:12 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,001
rockscan will become famous soon enough
Default Termination of Parental Relationship

Has anyone encountered "termination of parental relationship" or heard anything about it? I came across this term in a few cases I read about post secondary. The paying parents were not always successful due to abuse or anger issues (I mention this for a reason) but I havent seen anything outside of post secondary.

Heres why I ask. My partner got a message from his youngest saying she no longer wants a relationship with him and she used the words "anger" and "abuse" in her message. There hasnt been any anger or abuse which was the confusion. The only precursor we can see was from the last two years when his ex withheld access and he sent correspondence documenting the interference and requesting make up time. The last instance being last christmas. He hasn't spoken to kid since last fall. (I wont bore you with details but his lawyer saw nothing wrong with any exchanges between him, the ex and the kids).

The problem with her cutting him off is that shes 14, has five years of activities still and then school. Hes wondering what his legal stance is when it comes to permission for stuff and access to information. School is a no brainer but the ex travels with kid and there is a history of kids traveling to other countries with other individuals. He knew this was only a matter of time since his ex has been grooming this "monster dad" attitude since before the divorce. He has documentation from the time during the separation/divorce, from his previous lawyer when they had to send notification to the ex and her lawyers, as well as three years of correspondence about this continued interference/withholding behaviour from ex. Now that kid is old enough, she has told dad to get bent. Problem being that he is still responsible for her in various aspects.

Also, how does this affect his access to information? Hes had at least four instances now where he has had to invoke the court order to get medical, educational and extra curricular info on kid and was met with a confidentiality clause on the files from the service provider.

He doesnt want to go to court to force anything, he just wants to protect himself going forward now that all access has been cut off and all information sharing has been stopped.

Thoughts? You can imagine how I feel about the way hes been treated. It was bad enough witnessing the break down last summer and at Christmas but the total devastation last night was heartbreaking. Hes walking a fine line between feeling vindictive and non-feeling today.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 11:22 AM
arabian's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 9,960
arabian will become famous soon enough
Default

Absolutely I have read about this. What you describe is parental alienation which has led to break-down of relationship between one parent and child. In many cases when the kid is going to post-secondary judges terminate child support if child does not keep up relationship with child (quite an incentive for parents who alienate their children from the other parent I'd think). In some instances the court orders a reunification program/counselling.

Your spouse's ex is really very stupid and short-sighted because if this continues your ex could have a very could case to terminate CS when child is in college university. When they are young the onus is on the custodial parent to ensure that the children keep up communication/relationship. Once child enters into post-secondary the onus seems to switch to to the child to keep a relationship with money-bags or gravy train stops. There is quite a bit of case law on this on CanLii.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 11:53 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,001
rockscan will become famous soon enough
Default

Thats what I had read. And yes, I told him she was stupid. He also showed the holiday emails to his lawyer and his response was "does this woman actually have legal representation because I would fire my client for this email".

Hes tried repeatedly to impress on his ex that her interference isnt helpful and also the withholding access issues. She either ignores it or makes some flippant comment back. For the past few years shes pulled the "too young to travel" "to uncomfortable around you" "emotionally scarred from the divorce" excuses. He has found ways to accommodate these in every instance short of supervised access. After the third demand for money from kid after refusing to engage in a meaningful relationship he finally said no (reluctantly I might add, he didnt want to be a jerk). Last night he finally understood why I have been saying kids who treat their parents badly dont deserve expensive birthday/christmas gifts. ("Youre not a parent so dont lecture me.")

He knows next year there will be a request for permission to go on a church mission trip and also philanthropic trips with other family members. He was reluctant with kid 1 but they were all in her chosen educational field and part of a school learning plan. Kid 2 just wants to do this stuff because kid 1 did it. He finds it hard to accept the "shes too afraid to travel alone to dad" when shes perfectly fine traveling alone for these activities. As Serene would say "she cant suck and blow".

He has been trying to impress on all three of them that there are consequences. Especially since theyve been pulling the "not speaking to you is the consequence for you filing for divorce/taking moms money". That may sound awful but know theres more to it. He doesnt find it fair that they ignore him or withhold info but then come calling for money for things he had no idea they were interested in.

And his ex has NEVER encouraged/facilitated the relationship. Going so far as to tell him no when he arrived to pick up kids on an agreed to visit and then spending the time hes with them constantly texting and calling them.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 12:04 PM
LovingFather32's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 4,518
LovingFather32 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
He knew this was only a matter of time since his ex has been grooming this "monster dad" attitude since before the divorce. He has documentation from the time during the separation/divorce, from his previous lawyer when they had to send notification to the ex and her lawyers, as well as three years of correspondence about this continued interference/withholding behaviour from ex. Now that kid is old enough, she has told dad to get bent.
I agree with Arabian. This sounds like a clear case of "Parental Alienation". I dont have all the details but it sure sounds like your case would meet the threshold of criteria met for the syndrome by a certified clinician.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 12:18 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,001
rockscan will become famous soon enough
Default

He did go through his own therapy last summer and was taught some tools and tips on how to manage the relationship. Im not a parent but I can understand how hard it is to just walk away because your kid says no. His ex now says that because kid is "old enough" she gets a say. There was an item in their agreement about therapy for him and the kids but there were conditions: she picked the therapist and then withheld access. The therapist was unable to develop a treatment plan because there wasnt a set schedule of access and the kids said they were sick of discussing the divorce. The ex played this situation perfectly for herself but in the long wrong it benefits no one.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 04:27 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 140
kamkatie is on a distinguished road
Default

My husband and I have been through this. His daughter's at ages 12 & 13 decided (with some "help" from their mother) to no longer have anything to do with us. We continued to pay support and special expenses. We sent birthday and Christmas presents (sometimes just dropping them on the front porch). We maintained an open door policy and let them know they were always welcome. Hubby also has a son with the ex and EOW was maintained with him (he was only 5 when the whole mess started).

When the eldest daughter hit 17, she started initiating contact with us again. D16 slowly followed. We now have a wonderful relationship with both girls, although those four years of no contact (or extremely negative contact from them) were very difficult.

Don't lose hope. Hubby's daughter's did re-evaluate as they matured and came to their own conclusions that their father wasn't the monster their mother made him out to be. All that being said, I do believe that legally, you're on the hook for supporting the child until she is 18 regardless of whether you see her or not. Once she's reached her age of majority, it is possible that you may be able to terminate support if you can prove that she has unilaterally terminated your relationship through no fault of your own. It is difficult as most judges will operate on the assumption that it is still in the child's best interests to receive support.

Best of luck, I really do hope it works out for you.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 04:41 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,001
rockscan will become famous soon enough
Default

Thanks. Im hopeful as well. His relationship with his oldest has been suffering being in the middle and I reminded him he needed to stop involving her. He has started doing that.

While the CS and S7 costs after she turns 19 is on the brain (and he doesnt plant to pull a total cut off) its more what happens with permissions and costs up to that age. For instance if ex comes and says "kid want to go on a cruise with their friends family" is it reasonable for him to say "I dont approve as you have said she is afraid to travel supervised to see her father" or would that be "unreasonably withholding permission".

I also forgot to mention that kid has started using her mothers maiden name. And also that he has said nothing to kids about their mother or the relationship other than things like "it hurts me that you spend all your free time with moms family and dont give me an opportunity to share time with you" types of things. Or he makes suggestions to accommodate their feelings like other times or dates to see them after they have spent time with others. Hes ALWAYS accommodated whereas his ex simply refuses to discuss or accommodate.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 04:55 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 140
kamkatie is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
While the CS and S7 costs after she turns 19 is on the brain (and he doesnt plant to pull a total cut off) its more what happens with permissions and costs up to that age. For instance if ex comes and says "kid want to go on a cruise with their friends family" is it reasonable for him to say "I dont approve as you have said she is afraid to travel supervised to see her father" or would that be "unreasonably withholding permission".
In this instance, I would not recommend withholding permission to travel, however, I doubt I'd be willing to pay for it! There's not much point in throwing comments like "being afraid to travel" out to the daughter or the ex as that mindset will never see the logic and all it does is waste your time. Just store it up for later use in court should it ever be required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
I also forgot to mention that kid has started using her mothers maiden name.
Been there too. Actually, both daughter's started using their mother's new husband's last name. Ouch! Unfortunately, not much you can do about this one. To change a last name legally would need your husband's permission at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
And also that he has said nothing to kids about their mother or the relationship other than things like "it hurts me that you spend all your free time with moms family and dont give me an opportunity to share time with you" types of things. Or he makes suggestions to accommodate their feelings like other times or dates to see them after they have spent time with others. Hes ALWAYS accommodated whereas his ex simply refuses to discuss or accommodate.
It sucks. My husband (who is significantly more patient and level headed than I am fortunately), never made accusations. He would leave things at "I love you, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I will always be there for you and I will always be your dad." It didn't matter what was tossed at him (and trust me there were some really nasty emails he received from his daughters), that was always his response.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 05:42 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,001
rockscan will become famous soon enough
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamkatie View Post
It sucks. My husband (who is significantly more patient and level headed than I am fortunately), never made accusations. He would leave things at "I love you, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I will always be there for you and I will always be your dad." It didn't matter what was tossed at him (and trust me there were some really nasty emails he received from his daughters), that was always his response.

Im more able to smell the bullshit than he is so it gets me riled more than him most days. Now that kid has put it in writing hes super pissed but staying calm. His therapist gave him tools to manage it and hes done everything. Problem is his ex knows he wont take court action so she did anything and everything she could.

Its a really shitty situation and hes been kicked pretty hard this time. Who knows what will happen. For now hes biding his time and hoping she changes her mind. Also focusing on a positive relationship with his other kid in the interim.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 05:45 PM
arabian's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 9,960
arabian will become famous soon enough
Default

Well ya know... your husband has a therapist to talk to now. You say he is not willing to do anything legally about the situation so perhaps you should consider not talking to him about his daughter anymore?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Termination of the relationship blinkandimgone Divorce & Family Law 4 08-25-2014 09:39 AM
Allegations of child abuse in the context of parental separation: A discussion paper Tayken Domestic Violence 7 08-21-2013 04:29 PM
Termination of Parental Rights. Tank2 Divorce & Family Law 20 02-12-2013 08:57 PM
Parental Alienation Grace Divorce & Family Law 16 03-27-2011 10:21 AM
4 year CL relationship ending - custody of child, house, possessions etc. Itiq Common Law Issues 2 09-12-2008 07:23 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:24 PM.