Ottawa Divorce .com Forums


User CP

New posts

Advertising

  Ottawa Divorce .com Forums > Main Category > Divorce & Family Law

Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2017, 10:37 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 9
blwl is on a distinguished road
Default Tax Returns - How Many Years back?

Hello,

My ex has hired a lawyer and they are asking for tax returns back to the original separation year. I only have tax returns for the last 3 years and the rest NOA's for the previous leading up to the separation. How far back should I be going and what to do if I cannot physically provide paper tax returns. Our agreement only said NOA's and I have always provided a copy even though she has never provided me with copies of hers.

The other question is that for the last three years, I have provided the tax return and NOA's. I had some small business income and some expenses on top of my day to day income. Now the lawyer wants details of telephone expenses, memberships, interest payments on loans, use of home for office, etc. What's next?

Just need some guidance and a second opinion.

Thanks,

BLWL
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2017, 08:35 PM
trinton's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,542
trinton has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

First thing first unless she pays you child support, her income is relevant to spousal support, or if there are s7 expenses regarding the child, or if you are seeking child support, she doesn't have to provide a financial statement.

You only need to provide for last 3 years. I think thats very clearly written on the financial statement.

As far as your business goes, I think the only thing that is of their business is your revenue and expense. I'm not understanding why she wants all that information. Particularly your interest on your loans. Sounds like a very nosy lawyer. What's next he or she is going to ask how many air miles reward points you have collected?

Definitely sounds sketchy. But if you find a space for that in the financial statement, fill it out. If it's not a spot for it in a financial statement, ignore.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-23-2017, 10:10 PM
arabian's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 9,844
arabian will become famous soon enough
Default

how many years were you married?
has your ex made a claim for spousal support or is this just about child support?

FYI - you can request tax returns going back for up to 10 years from CRA (I think it's 10 - might be 8 but you can find that out online).

They are requesting information about your income and expenses because often people who are self-employed "write off" expenses which are not allowable expenses when determining income for support. In other words, your tax filings may be kosher with CRA but not with family court. A simple example might be for vehicle allowance or meals.

Word of caution - be careful what you provide to your ex's lawyer. He/she is NOT your lawyer. Often people will not provide information until the court orders them to do so (but then you could be looking at paying 'costs' (lawyer's fees) particularly if you are required to provide information into court. For the time being I would simply follow the guidelines on the court forms and, of course, get legal advice before you do this. Don't be "penny wise... pound foolish" - could be the best money you spend.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:18 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 9
blwl is on a distinguished road
Default

Hello Trinton and Arabian,

Thank you for your responses, but what is the right answer?

It seems that it’s pretty black and white when it comes to the payor, but there is all this gray area when it comes to the recipient. No rights whatsoever for the payor.

I’ve got a lawyer who when we first met looks at our separation agreement which is not court ordered and says it’s a witch hunt, but now says to give them everything I’ve got in the way of information.

This is all about child support. In our agreement, we agreed to x amount, to exchange financial information which I did and at the time I was a commissioned salesperson so she knew my income would fluctuate. We both agreed instead of adjusting up and down every year, I would pay the same amount. Over a 14 year period she never once said that she wants more, never went to court. In fact looking at it over the years I have overpaid, but it’s for my kids. Eventually I couldn’t keep up with the business and I got a regular job. I still did some business on the side, but nothing at all significant.

Now she gets a lawyer because one of our kids is an adult and hasn’t gone back to school. I continued to pay child support in the hopes he would make a decision to go back, but he didn't so in the fall I started paying him instead of the mom. She claims as long as he is living under her roof and no matter whether or not he is going to school, I still have to pay child support.

When I received the letter from her lawyer, and on the advice of my lawyer I stopped paying all together for the one child. Against my lawyers advice I continued to pay for our other child because I didn't want my child to go without.

Her lawyer wants every tax return going back to the separation agreement. Canada Revenue Agency only provides for 3 years of ‘Option C’ proof of income and I only have to keep 6 years of hard copies. I gave them 3 years according to what the guidelines are.

They wrote back stating they want every T1 back to the separation plus now they want full disclosure on the following:

Interest Expenses
Business Tax, Fees, Licenses, Memberships, Dues, etc.
Administration and Management Fees
Telephone and Utilities,
Details of Capital Cost Allowance
Other Expenses

How do I produce a Tax Return that even Canada Revenue doesn’t have?????

Ever since my kids became teenagers and got their own jobs, more and more of their own money went to buy food and clothes. I barely see them now , maybe once every three months and when you say something to the mother I get told, “they’re old enough to make their own decisions.”

You know, I thought this is about providing our children with a beneficial and plentiful life, that both parents, can be just that, parents to our children. But it is abundantly clear, that whoever the payor is, male or female, this system wants the payor living on skid row, or even worse, pushing one of the edge. I am in my fifty’s with no retirement fund. I lost everything and continued to pay for my children despite a bankruptcy. I got hurt on a job site and my now wife had to work 2 jobs to make sure the we continued the payments.

As I write this, I am at a breaking point and don’t think I can take much more.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:46 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,891
rockscan will become famous soon enough
Default

They cant go back that far. If you have been updating your child support every year or when your income changed then you havent done anything wrong. And if your child is over 18 and not in school full time then they are not eligible for support. If they go back they are eligible.

Have they provided anything in the way of proof of application for school?

Send them the last three years and advise that you have been paying according to your income. Request proof of kids enrollment in full time school, plans for going back to school and any other information regarding same. Calculate how much you have overpaid in child support over the last five years and then put them on ignore. Save your energy for when they file a motion. All the lawyer is doing is trying to intimidate you.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2017, 09:46 AM
trinton's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,542
trinton has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

we're all in this together fellow veteran, it is most indeed very sad that we are seen as nothing more than a paycheque, a bank account, or an ATM machine locked up in a corner and kicked and moved around at discretion. They turn us into visitors to our children and take our hard earned money from us in the form of "child" support. I have been studying a lot recently to understand what goes inside of these people's heads and what motivates them. They basically get influenced by peers to use the system to screw you over to their own benefit. They get to have the kids under their full control with little exposure to you and you have to pay them every month or you lose your license and go to jail. They love to have power and feel like they have you under their thumb. It makes them feel superior and gives them something to make up for their lack of self esteem and confidence. It's like morphine to them and they are addicted to it.

Back on track, speak to another lawyer or two. You can get free 20 minutes from duty counsel in court (take a lunch or hour or two off early in morning and have a chat). Take advantage of law society referal service for free half hour as well. Fill out the form online and call in to schedule 30 minutes.

I do think it is good to give them everything you have. It shows that you have nothing to hide and adds to your credibility. But don't give any more than that is asked for/required by law. Just simply tell them you don't have income taxes past the last 3 years. You can't give them what you don't have. If you had updated financials every year then you don't need to re provide what you have already provided every year.

I completely understand, they're after your money, both her and her lawyer. It's a cruel world out there. Keep your head up high and pursue your dreams and don't let anyone bring you down, not her, nor her lawyer, or the blood money they live off of like vampires.

As per overpayment, that is easy to recover, on any subsequent child support order, you don't agree unless the overpayment is dealt with. I've had overpayment and it was easy to recover.

Last edited by trinton; 01-24-2017 at 09:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2017, 10:09 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 9
blwl is on a distinguished road
Default

As I mentioned before we had a written separation agreement regarding the dollar amount per month to counter balance the fluctuation in my income. She agreed and for the last 14 years I have paid not only support at that set amount, I've also paid for extracurricular activities without her ever challenging me, asking for an increase or going to court. I guess this separation agreement doesn't mean anything.

I realize when my oldest does finally get off his duff I will pay support for him again, but here is the kicker. She deliberately didn't work a full time job. Had a kid with her new husband and stayed at home. She now wants to calculate the percentage of what I pay vs. what she pays for post secondary education. Great for her that she is showing no income.

And what about the explanation of expenses? It's a joke to explain my phone expenses when I had to make calls to prospective clients and utilities so I claimed a portion 10% of my house as home office. What are they going to say that is part of my income??? what the hell is the point of line 150 if no one has to follow it. Oh it's that recipient gray area.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2017, 01:16 PM
trinton's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,542
trinton has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blwl View Post
As I mentioned before we had a written separation agreement regarding the dollar amount per month to counter balance the fluctuation in my income. She agreed and for the last 14 years I have paid not only support at that set amount, I've also paid for extracurricular activities without her ever challenging me, asking for an increase or going to court. I guess this separation agreement doesn't mean anything.

I realize when my oldest does finally get off his duff I will pay support for him again, but here is the kicker. She deliberately didn't work a full time job. Had a kid with her new husband and stayed at home. She now wants to calculate the percentage of what I pay vs. what she pays for post secondary education. Great for her that she is showing no income.

And what about the explanation of expenses? It's a joke to explain my phone expenses when I had to make calls to prospective clients and utilities so I claimed a portion 10% of my house as home office. What are they going to say that is part of my income??? what the hell is the point of line 150 if no one has to follow it. Oh it's that recipient gray area.

You've got to learn to keep your emotions in check. And i'm saying this for your own benefit in court in front of the judges and lawyers. You have a right to ask for income to be imputed to her based on her most recent income, or full time at minimum wage, whichever is more. She should be working.

Explain the phone situation a little more. I don't see how an expense could be used as an income. Elaborate.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2017, 01:32 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 9
blwl is on a distinguished road
Default

Hi Trinton,

Sorry if you think I was mad or something. I wasn't. I am frustrated at getting different responses especially from my lawyer.

Her lawyer is asking for a detailed explanation of the following:

Interest Expenses
Business Tax, Fees, Licenses, Memberships, Dues, etc.
Administration and Management Fees
Telephone and Utilities,
Details of Capital Cost Allowance
Other Expenses

My lawyer says if I don't explain to them what I used my phone for or what interest I paid or who I paid admin fees to and it seems regardless if they are adequate expenses, her lawyer will remove them as expenses which will reduce my expenses inturn increase my income.

It has left me scratching my head.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-24-2017, 02:02 PM
Janus's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,294
Janus will become famous soon enough
Default

Expenses that CRA recognizes as legitimate are not expenses that family court necessarily recognizes as being legitimate. In general, any expense that is one you would incur even if you did not own the business is one a family judge could potentially disallow.

eg.

Meals
Cars
Shelter


Obviously going back beyond 3 years is ridiculous, their chance to challenge those expenses has long since passed. Going forward though your line 150 income is not that relevant. The self-employed who run a small business always pay a lot less tax than they really should.

I would make an offer to settle. Maybe say that you are willing to gross up your line 150 by 10% (or whatever arbitrary % makes you happy) to account for the potential overlap between business and personal expenses.

Who has to pay for the report on the expenses if one has to be prepared? Is it always the business owner or can it be shared? Maybe offer to hire an evaluator if she pays half of the cost. The 10% freebie markup might sound more enticing at that point.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Separated 2 years, Should Financial or Support Motions Preceed Custody Agreement? beentaken Divorce & Family Law 5 04-18-2013 03:00 PM
Back Support LCB General Chat 3 01-03-2012 10:32 PM
Enough already littleman Financial Issues 101 11-09-2011 06:39 PM
Dad has paid for everything for 10 years...now she wants to take him to the cleaners Innocent Bystander Common Law Issues 20 02-02-2011 09:37 PM
ex wife returns after 15 years for pension happlilymarried General Chat 2 11-21-2009 08:59 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:32 PM.