Shared Custody Spousal Support

[johnfraby]

The Situation
==========
Spouse A: 38 years old, 95K gross, Ontario
Spouse B: 33 years old, 50K gross, Ontario
Shared Custody of 3 years old child (living 50% with each parent)
Separated after 2 years of marriage

Despite the shared custody, Spouse A has agreed to pay $400/month child support payments to Spouse B.

Now to my questions:
================
1) If we both agree on not having any spousal support payments, is that OK or will the courts insist that spousal support payments be made because of our child?

2) If we sign a separation agreement stating that no spousal support payments are being asked for or paid, then at a later date, can Spouse B change their mind and come after Spouse A demanding spousal support?

3) The SSAG guidelines for spousal support payments are not specific. Typing my info into their 'With Child Support' formulas yield that Spouse A should pay Spouse B anywhere from $187/month to $1,146/month (with a midpoint of $562/month) for a period between 3 to 15 years. The lower bound being when the child attends school full time and the upper bound being when the child graduates from high school. Can someone give me a better guideline for these figure? Is it really true that after only a 2 year marriage that Spouse B could demand $600/month for 15 years, even though:
i) Spouse B is entirely self-sufficient
ii) Spouse A has shared custody
iii) Spouse A has significant child support payments
If yes, then this seems absolutely absurd to me.

Please advise.
Thanks.

[willnevergiveup]

I need some input on how to deal with a children's lawyer who is diliberately withholding information from the courts with respects to my at the time 11yr old now 12yr old child's request. Because my 13yr olds wishes was to be with her father I had agreed to allow her to be with him as much as that decision hurt to do...in the process my 11yr old now 12 as of July 16th was forced to go with her father as well and her wishes were to be with and remain to be with her mom. She contacted her lawyer ie children's lawyer by phone crying and so heart broken stating in a voicemail to her lawyer that she did not want to leave and wanted to stay with her mom. Bottom line here is that we have since had two conferences and not once did her lawyer mention to the courts about her wishes to continue to stay with mom, instead she has lied stating that it was quite the opposite. Every time my daughter contacted her lawyer she has told here that there is nothing she can do for her. I myself stated to this lawyer in the beginning that i will not kiss her butt that these are our children and unless she can find me to be unfit that there were no grounds on why i should not have the kids. I have stated to her how upset i am that she has wasted the courts time and my time in keeping this information from the courts as there would've been a means to an end a long time ago. We are going to trial as my phone records and a witness at the time that my daughter made that call to the children's lawyer the day the temp primarly motion was made. I don't feel that because one of my daughters wishes to be with her father should hold any weight with regards to what the other one wants now that she is twelve. She has been with her father for the last year which has given him alot of time to work on and manipulate her just as he has the other. I have been denied access on my times as noted in the temp order, my 13yr old has possessed a negative attitude towards me for no apparent reason and he has did nothing to encourage the girls within the last year to exercise access with me. My concern here is that all of this has happened because the children's lawyer has withheld pertinent information that would have helped in my case but yet someone who has a biased opinion of me has chose to go against my daughters wishes and not inform the courts accordingly of her wishes. This has led to my daughter having a very bad opinion of her lawyer, she has lied to here on more then one occassion because she has realized that this lawyer has done nothing for her or has followed through on her wishes to be with her mother. My question here is can I make a motion seeings how it's 1 month from the trial to have this children's lawyer removed if not would the courts take into consideration at the time of the trial that this lawyer has failed to inform the courts of my daughters wishes based on a biased opinion of her mother? I have phone records to prove the call was made to the above noted and a very credible witness as well and if she cannot be removed am waiting for the time to confront her at trial on her lies? Any insight would be appreciated.

[johnfraby]

Sorry for your situation, but please don't hijack my thread and instead start your own thread. Please delete your reply to my post and instead create your own post.

Thanks.

[NBDad]

Child support is automatic, and $400/month is pretty close to what offset would be. (it's actually a little high...~20-40/month more)

For spousal to work, there would have to be an entitlement, and from the information you have provided, it's not there. Marriage was of short duration, so you would pay at most 6months of spousal per 1 year of marriage.

1) If we both agree on not having any spousal support payments, is that OK or will the courts insist that spousal support payments be made because of our child?

SPOUSAL support has ZERO to do with the child. The court's will typically insist on CHILD SUPPORT being present in an agreement. Spousal support must be proven, and it doesn't sound like it's needed in this instance. Ensure both parties have independant legal advice prior to signing an agreement.

2) If we sign a separation agreement stating that no spousal support payments are being asked for or paid, then at a later date, can Spouse B change their mind and come after Spouse A demanding spousal support?

As long as there was independant legal advice on both sides, can they? Yes. Will they be successful? EXTREMELY unlikely, unless there was significant assets hidden or something to that extent.

i) Spouse B is entirely self-sufficient

Which is one of the key arguments for no spousal support being needed.

ii) Spouse A has shared custody

Not relevant to SPOUSAL SUPPORT.

iii) Spouse A has significant child support payments

$400/month on a 95K salary is not significant. And it has no bearing on whether the other spouse is entitled to spousal. Child support paid/received would be used in the calculations, but that's the extent of it.

You are confusing spousal support and child support in your post. They are two separate and distinct entities and have very little to do with each other. CHILD support is automatic, stupidly easy to calculate.

Federal Child Support Amounts: Simplified Tables

Spousal support must be proven to be needed. If Spouse B was/is self sufficient throughout the duration of the marriage, and made no career sacrifices/etc for Spouse A, then an award of spousal is a tough sell.

[HammerDad]

For a 2 year marriage with those incomes, I think there would be very very limited spousal support payable. Spousal support is based off of entitlement and duration of the marriage.

For duration, the rule of thumb is .5 years to 1 year of SS for each year of marriage. So for you, one would expect SS for a MAX of 2 years (now that is unless there like a 10 year common law relationship in behind that was failed to be mentioned).

For entitlement, they look at each spousal proportion of the net family income and they look at what, if any, benefits or opportunities given up by each spouse. There is no guaranteed entitlement.

But I am more confused about whether you mean child support. Even in shared custody situations, there is still child support payable given the salaries and the courts will require that it be paid.

[johnfraby]

NBDad and HammerDad --- THANK YOU for your clear and concise answers.

Can you point me to a good web page to read about 'entitlement'.
The situation is that although Spouse B is currently earning 50K/year gross and is self sufficient, during the marriage the spouse was entirely reliant on Spouse A -- ie: Spouse B went to school and Spouse A paid for all living expenses and child care expenses during this 2 year period. From an entitlement perspective, I'm not sure if this works in favour of Spouse A or Spouse B.

Thanks so much for your replies.

[Sheesh]

Setting SS aside for now, in ontario -as far as I "thought" doesnt each owe each other Child Support? For example based on the salaries and using the formulas above:

B pays in CS = 462
A pays in CS = 837

They both pay each other this amount if 50/50 custody. Therefore at the end of the day (actually month) A owes B $375 in CS

Someone PLEASE correct me if Im wrong (potentially going to be going through a similar thing)

[johnfraby]

Yes, as far as I know that's the way it works -- which is how I arrived at the $400 (I dont mind paying a bit more as I know all of the money will end up benefiting my child).

Further, any joint expenses for the child are split according to ability to pay. eg:if you make twice as much as your spouse, and you send your child to day care, then you have to pay twice as much as your spouse to cover the day care costs.

[Sheesh]

Ok. Good luck my friend. I'll keep an eye on this thread and help out if I can. I have a million questions as well, but I'll create another thread for that

[benoitc]

The separation agreement is a legal binding document even if it is signed outside the courts. I'm in the exact same situation and do not pay spousal support. It is written and agreed upon in the separation agreement. We both agreed to it. That is all that matters, she cannot come back and say "I need your support now".

On the other hand, you are required to pay child support... it's not a choice.

I just finally got my divorce certificate and had no problem because even if no spousal support was paid to my ex wife.

As for a guideline, it says for spousal support to be needed, the lower income spouse has to have less that 40 - 46% of the combined INDI (net income +/ child support +/- other revenues (CCTB/UCTB).....