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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2006, 03:40 PM
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LV and DM,

I hope you or any of your family is never in this type of situation and someone gives you an answer like you both have.

As a professional, we have to report any suspisions under the Child and Safetly Act. So what is 100% SOLID evidence??? How long do you wait.....till you have that 100%......too late....if we go by your advice.

Geez....unbelievalbe that a only a few of us in this thread feel the need to protect the child of this world instead of worrying about "what might bite us in the butt in court".....who cares about that......care about the children....


Jenny......you are again right on the money with this one!!!!
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2006, 04:27 PM
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Everyone - regardless of whether they are professional or not is obliged to report child abuse or suspected child abuse. I don't think that LV or I have said not to report it - what we are saying is be certain you have your facts straight if and when you do report it.
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Old 05-08-2006, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Divorcemanagement
I would have to echo Logicalvelocity's posting. It's really important to remember that "there's what you know (or think you know) about your former spouse and what you can prove". If you can't prove it, and you make an allegation it will often blow up in your face and impact your credibility with divorce decision makers.

Involving social services in your case can also backfire and/or complicate your dispute immeasurabley. First off, they get calls every day from men and women involved in custody disputes - one the the first questions they ask you when you call is, "are you involved in a custody dispute".

Go to the doctor - is your child showing signs of having consumed milk products? If so, that's your starting point. Never assume without proof that you are right in a dispute. It can backfire in a very negative way.
It isn't her job to PROVE it. I believe it is her job to REPORT it. I really don't think your advice is clear here.... I think she needs to report it even if it is closed after. CAS's job is to investigate. She shouldn't have to make decisions that weigh -hmmm how will this look to the court vs- should i sit back and wait until I actually see the kids being sexually abused or have proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by logicalvelocity
I have to ask what are the clear signs? Has there been any previous involvement of the CAS in regards to these other children? Have these other children openly acknowledged to being abused by this individual? Do you not think that the mother of these two children might have some tribulations or awareness of what is going on. Have you considered speaking to her.

All I am saying is, that if the allegation is investigated, proven to be unfounded, the person making the unfounded allegation will have very little credibility left with the court. The courts could also give this conduct great weight especially in custody situations on their own ability to act as a parent to a child. The courts would consider this conduct inappropriate.

I agree 100% that if you have rock solid proof, then yes indeed go ahead and call the CAS.

Ultimately the decision to call is up to you to make the call, The CAS is going to want to interview yourself extensively as to how you came to the conclusion of "clear signs"

Once a file is started with the CAS, they may claim to close it, but keep in mind, the history of the file is still there, so in essence it is never ever closed.

LV
reporting it to the mother isn't enough... Very rarely do victims actually openly discuss it. It is hidden behind a wall of shame and secrecy. Would 100% rock solid mean you actually have to SEE the abuse - not likely- odds are it is behind closed doors- I doubt there are many cases where someone has 100% rock solid proof. Again- how it looks vs the safety of the child- a no brainer for me. I would hope that it would be for most of you, or if it is your child someone reports it and doesn't worry about how it will look if they do.
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Old 05-08-2006, 05:37 PM
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Every person does have a responsibility to report child abuse, no doubt about that.

Rock solid proof would be a PHYSICIAN who certifies that the child has been abused and has completed a comprehensive exam and moreover the child openly admits that it did indeed occur or a person actually witnessed it.

Another question I would have is

Does the individual still have an ongoing relationship with the child, If so why is the custodial parent supporting it? To be open it is quite possible that the custodial parent may not be aware if it is occuring, but I supect if abuse was occuring the child would not want to see the abuser perhaps citing another reason and excuses. etc.

What I mentioned in my earlier post is to do with the ramification of making unfounded allegations in light of a ongoing custody matter. It doesn't really apply to a specific individual but the consequences for making an unfounded allegation remain the same.

I am a parent and I have no tolerance for child abusers or pedophiles. I feel openly that the criminal laws are too lenient and that these individuals should be locked up indefinitely without parole and should not be allowed out in society.

A little story about a freind who had involvement with the CAS as a result of an unfounded allegation by a school teacher.

The teacher reported to the CAS that the child was sent to school without a lunch implying that the parent was unfit.

What the teacher did not know was the child was disposing of the lunch before they reached school. The parent wasn't aware either.

The ramnification of the alleagtion was that the parent had to take several days off work and meet with the CAS and straighten the matter out.

As a solution, the parent in the interim has left an amount of money with the school and each week brings an additional snack pack of goods such as granola bars, fresh fruit drink boxes etc, Just in case the child disposes of the lunch in the future.
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2006, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logicalvelocity
Every person does have a responsibility to report child abuse, no doubt about that.
Glad to hear this clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by logicalvelocity
Rock solid proof would be a PHYSICIAN who certifies that the child has been abused and has completed a comprehensive exam and moreover the child openly admits that it did indeed occur or a person actually witnessed it.
See I don't think that this is possible- since it is a suspicion about someone elses kids- not her own. - We can't grab kids off the street or family members we don't have custody of (cousins,sisters,neices,nephews, patients, students etc) and drag them off to a dr to determine if there is cause. We still have a responsibility to report suspicions in these cases. CAS can investigate at this point and determine if there is evidence. Really if this is the standard for reporting abuse - CAS really can lay off a ton of social workers, because very very few cases would fall into this. Kids are afraid to admit abuse, the abusers very smart at manipulating and being sure not to arouse a lot of suspicions.
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Old 05-08-2006, 06:19 PM
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It is very difficult and illegal to take somone else's child and have them undergo a comprehensive physical medical examination to support suspicions of sexual abuse.

This role is indeed rested upon the CAS for child protection matters to investigate allegations. However, If the allegation is investigated and turns out to be unfounded, and the matter is brought up in another custody adjudications of another child, that involves the same parties the person that made the unfounded allegation could have some problems explaining it to the court. It gives the other side ammo.

If at all possible have someone else make the call to the CAS that is not involved in the pending custody adjudication.
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2006, 06:39 PM
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That was my point exactly. That you CAN'T wait for rock solid proof.

If you have to you can always make an anonymous complaint as well, but again this isn't always taken as seriously. If it comes down to a choice of a child's safety and my court case I will ALWAYS choose the kid.
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2006, 07:31 PM
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I copied this off the CAS web page. I believe all suspect child abuse should be reported, regardless of any custody battles.

When should I contact a Children's Aid Society?

If you are being or have been abused or neglected, or you are afraid you will be.
If you are aware of a child or youth who may be abused or neglected.
If you believe on reasonable grounds that a child or youth under 16 is or may be in need of protection the law requires you to report this to the Children's Aid Society.
If you know or suspect that a child is exposed to domestic violence.
If, as a parent, you find the pressures of family life becoming overwhelming and you are afraid you may take it out on your children.
If you need help regarding a pregnancy.
If, as a teenager, you are experiencing serious conflict in your family.
[ top ]

What if I'm not sure if a child is being abused?

If you have any concerns about a child, any suspicions that the child is or is at risk of being abused or neglected, please call us. You don't have to be positive. We will talk with you about your concerns, and answer your questions. We will investigate and determine if the child is at risk. Regardless of whether the child is at risk or not, you'll know that you did the right thing by calling.


When should I contact a Children's Aid Society?

If you are being or have been abused or neglected, or you are afraid you will be.
If you are aware of a child or youth who may be abused or neglected.
If you believe on reasonable grounds that a child or youth under 16 is or may be in need of protection the law requires you to report this to the Children's Aid Society.
If you know or suspect that a child is exposed to domestic violence.
If, as a parent, you find the pressures of family life becoming overwhelming and you are afraid you may take it out on your children.
If you need help regarding a pregnancy.
If, as a teenager, you are experiencing serious conflict in your family.
[ top ]


What if I'm not sure if a child is being abused?

If you have any concerns about a child, any suspicions that the child is or is at risk of being abused or neglected, please call us. You don't have to be positive. We will talk with you about your concerns, and answer your questions. We will investigate and determine if the child is at risk. Regardless of whether the child is at risk or not, you'll know that you did the right thing by calling.


What happens when I make a report to a Children's Aid Society?

You will speak with a social worker who will determine if an investigation is warranted. If so and investigation will begin. The investigation will reveal what, if any, services are appropriate for CAS to offer the child and family.


Is information confidential?

Information given to a CAS is confidential and can be shared only with the permission of the person to whom it relates, or by a court order or subpoena.


You will speak with a social worker who will determine if an investigation is warranted. If so and investigation will begin. The investigation will reveal what, if any, services are appropriate for CAS to offer the child and family.

Last edited by Grace; 05-08-2006 at 07:34 PM.
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2006, 07:33 PM
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You can't really sit on something of this nature but another option would be to have the office of the children's lawyer involved, they will investigate the matter thoroughly, perhaps even interview the other mother etc and they could make the call to the CAS.

here is a few cases where one parent made numerous complaints to the CAS and others. At the end of the day they found themselves to be an access parent.

Paragraph 7

http://www.canlii.org/on/cas/onsc/20...onsc11624.html

and this one paragraph 20

http://www.canlii.org/on/cas/onsc/20...onsc10075.html
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2006, 07:45 PM
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There have also been cases where women with abusive partners haven't reported child abuse and have lost custody to foster care.

Thank you Grace for posting that.

Like I said earlier - you can word it that you want them to investigate, that these are your concerns- you don't have to come across as a bitter ex. Phrase things as objectively as possible. Try to avoid generalizations and sweeping allegations. Both the police and CAS are used to sorting these things out.

LV: Those cases you mentioned - especially the second one- were extreme examples. 36 calls to CAS all unfounded is a completely different situation then involving CAS with your concerns and wanting them to look into them.
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