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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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Old 01-29-2016, 11:15 AM
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Default Parental Alienation / Using the children as tools

Hi folks,

I've been dealing with a separation for a little while. I've been diligent in recording events, with specific times and dates etc.

I'd like some folks feedback on how they think this will play out in court and if I have grounds for > 50/50 custody.

Long story short here are the reasons why I want full custody and more than 50/50 custody.

- I have always been the primary caregiver.
- The ex has committed acts of property destruction in front of the children.
- The ex has pushed me in front of the children (but coaxed the children to lie and say that it never happened)
- In that same incident he managed to convince the police that he was the - victim and the victims unit contacted HIM (although I was assaulted and the one who called the police).
- He changed the locks on the matrimonial home.
- He constantly alienates me to the children
- He tells the children I'm dangerous and that he is sweet and caring and would never hurt a fly.
- He showed up at my new home, and attempted to enter the home to take the children
- He involves the children in the fight
- He had a drug pipe (marijunana) in the home with the children (picture to prove it)

Without getting into the details of how he alienates me, and what he's telling the children, it's despicable.

The children are both aged under 7 years of age.

We are high conflict and cannot communicate (and has admitted it), but has stated that we can in his latest court documents, because he must have realized that high conflict usually means no Joint custody.

The case conference is coming up, and I'm trying to understand what to expect.

My goal is to go in and point out the reasons why it's in the best interest of the children to spend more time with me, and less with him. And to offer a few options of settlement/resolution.

Without prejudice, he shows all the signs of a sociopath, and entitlement. Part of my conditions to allow joint custody/more access are for him to seek counselling and show an improvement in his behavior.

I'm looking to just talk through this with some of the great folk on here to help me understand what to expect, and for others who have had similar experiences (or read cases) to share their thoughts with me.

P.S. I just found out that he coaxed my child into telling C.A.S. that my new partner has hurt the child. Things are out of control on his side.

He has a keen ability to manipulate people, and has been able to do so with C.A.S. the authorities, and I fear he may be able to do it with the courts.
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Old 01-29-2016, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OntarioDaddy View Post
How old are the children, what do they want?

A lot of your concerns are the things couples go through during the end of marriage/beginning of separation. It's assumed you two will be separated now and no longer having to deal with those things, and therfore it should be 50/50.

However, if you have legitimate safety concerns then you should mention them.
Children are 3 and 6. Too young to really know what they need.

They express that they want to spend more time with me, that their father just sits on the computer and plays with his phone when they are there (that was the standard prior to separation too). He expressed very little interest in the children prior to separation, and has acted like he's dad of the year since.

He has told me a few times that he didn't like one of our children, and that he acknowledged that he needed to work on that...

I don't believe he will hurt the children, but he has a negative impact on their behavior and upbringing. Plus he does not like one of the children.
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Old 01-31-2016, 01:08 PM
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Looking at your arguments for wanting full custody. The reasons that would help with your case is

1. Primary caregiver (however not so much these days depending on the judge)
2. Violence committed in front of the children.
3. Alienation from other parent

As surprising as it sounds, you are actually allowed to do drugs as longs as it's on your own time and not in front of the children. Aka endanger your children.

What you have against you (dealing with your credibility)
1. The children themselves state that that pushing incident never happened.
2. There is a police report saying that he is the victim...? what happened to start this?

What you can do to bolster your credibility.
1. Have documented email/text/journal evidence showing a pattern of his destructive behavior in front of the children.
2. Also records from non-bias sources would help greatly. Police report
3. If you feel that parenting alienation is a concern, then you need to get the kids into a psychologist and have them do an assessment. You both have to consent permission for this though.

I am sure he will hurl his accusations at you as well and this will be a matter of he said/she said. The judge will not really have a lot to tip it in your favor if you don't have evidence to support your allegations.
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Old 01-31-2016, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstTimer View Post
Looking at your arguments for wanting full custody. The reasons that would help with your case is

1. Primary caregiver (however not so much these days depending on the judge)
2. Violence committed in front of the children.
3. Alienation from other parent

As surprising as it sounds, you are actually allowed to do drugs as longs as it's on your own time and not in front of the children. Aka endanger your children.

What you have against you (dealing with your credibility)
1. The children themselves state that that pushing incident never happened.
2. There is a police report saying that he is the victim...? what happened to start this?

What you can do to bolster your credibility.
1. Have documented email/text/journal evidence showing a pattern of his destructive behavior in front of the children.
2. Also records from non-bias sources would help greatly. Police report
3. If you feel that parenting alienation is a concern, then you need to get the kids into a psychologist and have them do an assessment. You both have to consent permission for this though.

I am sure he will hurl his accusations at you as well and this will be a matter of he said/she said. The judge will not really have a lot to tip it in your favor if you don't have evidence to support your allegations.
The only evidence I have for allegations of parental alienation is a log of what the children have said. It's "evidence" although it could easily be fabricated, as he has submitted "journals" that have lies in them.

The only witness to what the children say, is my new partner, who would be considered "bias".

The children stated that the pushing never happened because their father coaxed them into it (I have it recorded) to the police. My child later admitted the truth when speaking to the C.A.S. agent in private, not in her father's presence. He has had an overwhelming influence on her, and has been brainwashing her against me since the separation. It's sick. All for his personal gain.
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Old 01-31-2016, 04:45 PM
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How is your relationship with your kids? If they still want to be near you and have no issues staying with you then it would hard to prove PAS.
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Old 01-31-2016, 05:19 PM
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Often tape recordings of children are not accepted as evidence:

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/do...&resultIndex=6
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Old 01-31-2016, 05:44 PM
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It sounds like Dad is a pretty crappy parent, but that doesn't necessarily mean the children are alienated from you. If they're willing to spend time with you, talk to you freely, and express positive emotions about you, despite what their father tells them, you don't have parental alienation on your hands. You have the different problem of co-parenting with a jerk.

If it went to court, and you wanted primary residence with the kids but Dad said that he was fine with 50/50, he might come off looking like the more reasonable parent. In other threads you have mentioned getting together a document trail of Dad's aggressive behaviour towards you, through seeking a restraining order or peace bond. I think it would be wise to have this evidence in hand before you seek primary residence, because at the moment your situation could look like "he said/she said". You mentioned that Dad makes a good impression on people and is very convincing - I would be hesitant to go up against someone like that in court unless you have a whole lot of evidence on your side.

If the kids are displaying behavioural issues, maybe speak to their teachers and see if you can get some sort of psychological assessment through their school? Or through their paediatrician, who might be able to make a referral?
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Old 01-31-2016, 08:35 PM
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Am I the only one seeing this?
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Old 01-31-2016, 10:03 PM
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Links: There are certainly some troubling inconsistencies.... sounds like a he/said she said situation on the surface, however, CAS and police have been involved so there will be some sort of 3rd party documentation one would think.

Regarding the financial, I was at first with the impression that they were married... then it was a "marriage-like relationship"... then it was "married for part of the time" So who knows whether the divorce act or family law act is in play which determines lots of things.

I think that both sides need pretty good documentation to advance any part of their issues successfully. Case conferences will probably be high-conflict with both playing the blame-game.

I certainly don't think we have the whole picture.

Hope they can find some resolution to their problems and move on with their lives. This might be a good case for binding arbitration - 2 days maximum if arbitrator can convince the 2 that most of their issues don't matter.
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by selfrep00 View Post
Long story short here are the reasons why I want full custody and more than 50/50 custody.
I will admit to a bias against parents who are against shared parenting. Keep that in mind during the following response.

Quote:
- I have always been the primary caregiver.
Presumably you will take some of his money, and he will take some of your parenting time. You will start working more and he will start parenting more. Divorce tends to change things. I've never understood why previous arrangements are so determinative of future arrangements.

Quote:
- The ex has committed acts of property destruction in front of the children.
Both my parents committed acts of property destruction in front of me, and they were (and are) absolutely exceptional parents. My mother once sent the door right through the wall. We laugh about it to this day.

My parents never hit me, not once. I am not property, I never confused myself with a door or wall.

Quote:
- The ex has pushed me in front of the children (but coaxed the children to lie and say that it never happened)
- In that same incident he managed to convince the police that he was the - victim and the victims unit contacted HIM (although I was assaulted and the one who called the police).
- He changed the locks on the matrimonial home.
I'll be honest, I don't believe you. There is a police report that says you abused your husband. The children say that you abused your husband. Your husband changed the locks to try and keep himself safe.

If your genders were reversed, you would be stuck with supervised parenting time, 3 hours every other weekend. It is only your lack of penis that is potentially saving you here.

Quote:
- He constantly alienates me to the children
Many divorced parents say crappy things about the other parent. That's not alienation. You explicitly did not go into detail, so I won't probe, but I will point out that the bar for "alienation" is very very very high. Too high in my opinion, but I'm not a judge.

Quote:
- He tells the children I'm dangerous and that he is sweet and caring and would never hurt a fly.
From what you are saying the police are saying the same thing.

Quote:
- He showed up at my new home, and attempted to enter the home to take the children
How did you have the children in the first place?

I bet you just grabbed them and then refused to send them back.

Quote:
- He involves the children in the fight
Sounds like you both do. I'm not nominating either of you for parent-of-the-year.

Quote:
- He had a drug pipe (marijunana) in the home with the children (picture to prove it)
Taking a picture of your own drug pipe and pretending it is his is sneaky. I like it

Quote:
My goal is to go in and point out the reasons why it's in the best interest of the children to spend more time with me, and less with him. And to offer a few options of settlement/resolution.
Point out to who? The judge doesn't care, it isn't a trial. Point out to your ex that you think he is a lousy parent? Guess what, he thinks the same thing about you.

What options are you going to offer for settlement? Given that you think your ex is evil incarnate, can you reasonably allow him to have any custody at all? There is nothing you can offer that he can accept. He is so terrible that you absolutely must have sole custody, and the only way to get that is through a trial.

Quote:
Without prejudice, he shows all the signs of a sociopath, and entitlement. Part of my conditions to allow joint custody/more access are for him to seek counselling and show an improvement in his behavior.
Half of the people on this board have an ex with a cluster B personality disorder. Furthermore, half of us on the board have a cluster B personality disorder. You can't prove it, and calling your ex a sociopath doesn't lead to negotiation and resolution.

Note that my first two sentences of the previous paragraph are not to be taken as mutually exclusive situations.

Quote:
I'm looking to just talk through this with some of the great folk on here to help me understand what to expect, and for others who have had similar experiences (or read cases) to share their thoughts with me.
I'm not one of the great folk, but I shared my thoughts anyway.

Quote:
P.S. I just found out that he coaxed my child into telling C.A.S. that my new partner has hurt the child. Things are out of control on his side.
Things are very much in control on his side. He is kicking your ass.

Quote:
He has a keen ability to manipulate people, and has been able to do so with C.A.S. the authorities, and I fear he may be able to do it with the courts.
There is no "may" about it. The police think you suck, CAS thinks you suck. The courts, who rely on the evidence of third party professionals such as the police and CAS will inevitably conclude that you suck.

Again, it is only your gender that even gives you a faint hope of having 50/50. If you were male, you would be looking at supervised access and potentially no custody.
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