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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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Old 12-29-2013, 01:54 PM
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Default ODF beats ILA

These thoughts really didn't belong in the thread that provoked them, so I am starting a new one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyntermcd View Post
Not upset so much that he pays, he signed the agreement after we had gotten together so I knew about it, (it took them a few years after they separated to get one written up), mostly just wishing that at the time I had known what I know now. There are a bunch of flaws to the agreement that seem abnormal from what I've read here. Honest truth if he has to keep paying then well he has to keep paying, that's life and we'll manage. And obviously there's no question that he has to provide for child support for quite some time still lol.
That is a common thing I see posted here. "If I had known then what I have since learned here, things would be better."

Then there is

Quote:
Originally Posted by MovingOn123 View Post
I wish I had made sure the SS never went past 2016. But now realize in order for it to stop, I would have to bring it back for review. I honestly believed that it meant it was going to end 2016 - until further research and reading, then I realized I was wrong.
That is probably the scariest thing about family law and this website. How is it that so many lawyers who sign off as having provided Independent Legal Advice don't do as good a job at advising their clients as we do for posters here? And few of us even have law backgrounds!

What good is ILA if people still don't understand the flaws in their agreements, and probably won't until they come into play years later? I suppose a good lawyer might say that it isn't their fault when clients don't listen. People hear what they want to hear sometimes. Bad legal advice can be worse than no legal advice at all, but people new to the family law system and going through emotional turmoil have no way to tell which is the bad advice! People trust their lawyers; most are not going to double check on the internet. The problem is that the agreements with no ILA can be reopened and the ones with bad ILA are stuck.

We really have to get on making that ODF separation agreement template we always talk about.
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Old 12-29-2013, 02:15 PM
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I agree with you Rio wholeheartedly on this. While I had an excellent lawyer, one very important item was overlooked in my agreement - Life Insurance. We missed that one. The next time my ex takes me back to court I hope my lawyer or I remember to request that.
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Old 12-29-2013, 02:25 PM
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I believe baldclub worked up a fairly comprehensive separation agreement and parenting plan last year. Maybe he would share the finished product with us (of course after removing the personal information)?
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Old 12-29-2013, 09:48 PM
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Agreed. I wrote up my own divorce order, and thought I did a pretty good job (and received compliments on it from experienced family lawyers, who were surprised a "civilian" managed to do such a comprehensive job). But since reading this site, I'm realizing all the things I missed, left out or left ambiguous - some of which have since come back to bite me. Definitely wish I had found this before flying solo.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:02 AM
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I tried to work out a detailed and complete agreement but kept facing resistance from my lawyer which equalled added expense. My lawyer essentially said that in high conflict situations it was best to leave everything vague and open. This totally goes against what my instinct tells me but bottom line of financing more legal costs had me finally walk away. I very carefully identified the points that were most important to me and made it very clear I was not willing to negotiate. Everything else I walked away from... and am still struggling to find closure on some of those things.
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Old 12-30-2013, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smileandwalkaway View Post
. My lawyer essentially said that in high conflict situations it was best to leave everything vague and open. This totally goes against what my instinct tells me but bottom line of financing more legal costs had me finally walk away.
That's got to be a contender for worst legal advice ever. Because high-conflict situations magically resolve into co-operation once the divorce judgment is signed and the parties are then able to work everything out over a coffee at Starbucks, like regular people? I got a lot of flak from my ex when I was writing up our divorce order about my "fanatical detailing" of everything. He wanted loose and open. I am very glad I stuck to my guns. I only wish now I had been even more fanatical, seeing the things I overlooked.
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Old 12-31-2013, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rioe View Post
That is probably the scariest thing about family law and this website. How is it that so many lawyers who sign off as having provided Independent Legal Advice don't do as good a job at advising their clients as we do for posters here? And few of us even have law backgrounds!
Hi Roie,

I have pondered the same questions and it all comes down to having to be horizontal to maintain an income for a lawyer and our ability to go very vertical in the subject matter.

Also, what is formed on this site is very much a "cloud" of knowledge with individual contributors who are very vertical in specific aspects of "family law".

For example, tayke myself... I focus mainly on aspects of parental child abduction and all other aspects that come along with it. This extends into the subject matters of "status quo" and "jurisdiction" (namely, forum shopping). Then comes custody and access evaluations...

But, my knowledge primarily is all focused on assisting parents who's children have been abducted by the other parent. If the information I share helps others then it is a double benefit.

The information I share on "domestic violence" and "abuse" for example is not because I am focused on that area but, as a part of my vertical area of research (child abduction) false allegations of domestic violence often come into the picture.

I focus on parental child abduction because it is actually an area of law where the most vulnerable members of our society, children, have no voice and are at the most risk to the harmful impacts of a high conflict divorce.

Hopefully in the new year we (ODF) will have further impact on our system of case law (which we already have) that will drive more needed change in our system of "family law".

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 12-31-2013, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smileandwalkaway View Post
I tried to work out a detailed and complete agreement but kept facing resistance from my lawyer which equalled added expense. My lawyer essentially said that in high conflict situations it was best to leave everything vague and open. This totally goes against what my instinct tells me but bottom line of financing more legal costs had me finally walk away. I very carefully identified the points that were most important to me and made it very clear I was not willing to negotiate. Everything else I walked away from... and am still struggling to find closure on some of those things.
Honestly, smileandwalkaway, it is time you "smile and walk away" from your lawyer. In a High Conflict situation agreements are generally very detailed and not ambiguous to END conflict. This is the whole principal behind detailed parallel parenting orders. Anyone who has read case law in the past 3 years knows this... and a lawyer in family law should have been informed of this from the law society courses they are required to take!

Best you buy this lawyer a copy of William Eddy's books when you release them from their responsibilities representing you to help minimize the impact that this kind of bad advice has on our society too.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 12-31-2013, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arabian View Post
I believe baldclub worked up a fairly comprehensive separation agreement and parenting plan last year. Maybe he would share the finished product with us (of course after removing the personal information)?
I really have a template kicking around that I need to clean up and post to the forum. I have been compiling it out of the case files I pull. Mostly, from the OCL and Section 30 reports that I pull from these files.

To be very honest with everyone... There are some section 30 evaluators who all use the same cut-and-paste template for their "recommendations" to court on what should be ordered. How do I know this? Well they all have the same freaking paragraphs and none of them bothered to fix the spelling error in a specific recommendation! It is a tell tail sign that all these "professionals" are all just using the same template. (Especially the ones in the Greater Toronto Area. It is really sad when you consider some people pay upwards of 60,000 for an "evaluation" that is a cut-and-paste-template with the same repeated spelling error.)

I just need to get my ducks in a row to finish it off... Maybe a new year project.
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Old 01-03-2014, 01:30 PM
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Default Sample separation agreement template

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
I just need to get my ducks in a row to finish it off... Maybe a new year project.
In the meantime, first and foremost I urge folks to read the guide here:

Critical Issues for Consideration when Developing Practical Parenting Plans For Families in Conflict: A Working Guide


I am going to post a TEMPLATE that I've had for a while. I can't recall where exactly it came from but for the greater good, and since there are no names in it, I will post it here.

Caution: You need your own good independent legal advice (ILA) to check it out whenever possible.

Here goes PART ONE:

.................................................. .................................................. ....


This is a SHARED PARENTING AGREEMENT made ___________ this day of __________________, 20____


NAME OF PARENT 1

- And -

NAME OF PARENT 2

court file No. ____________


SUPERIOR COURT OF JUSTICE
(Regional Municipality of ....)

BETWEEN

PARENT 1
Petitioner

and


PARENT 2

Respondent



PARENTING RESPONSIBILITY DOCUMENT
(based on 50/50 parental responsibility)

Whereas

1) The mother and father were married on January 1, 1999 in Ontario.

2) The parties have the following child of their marriage, namely Child , born on January 1, 2000, who currently is 1years of age.

3) The parties have lived separate and apart since January 2, 2000.

4) Both parties wish their child to have a meaningful and loving relationship with each of the parents. Each parent recognizes that the child will benefit from a positive relationship with the other parent and that the child will benefit if the parents remain committed to shared parenting.
Now therefore, the parties acknowledge the following:

BASIC PRINCIPLES

5) That the child wishes to be able to love and to respect both parents, regardless of the present separation or future marital status of either of the parents and that the separation of the parents should not interfere with the rights of the child to love, be loved and to be parented by both parents.

6) That it is essential and in the best interest of the child that the child maintain regular, frequent and healthy contact with both parents.

7) That this agreement provides a clear mechanism to help guide the parents, which will result in a reduction in conflict, which is to the best interest of the child.

8) That there will be personal sacrifices that the parents will each have to make for the child as a result of their decision to separate. For this reason the parties recognize that the child's welfare is paramount and the child's needs will take precedence over the needs of the parents for the purposes of accommodating the best interest of the child.

9) That the child is sensitive to any conflict and bad feelings between the parents.

10) That the parents will not allow their disagreements of the past to influence the current situation.

11) That any form of activity intended to alienate the child from the other parent is harmful to the children. (Referred to as Parental Alienation).

12) That it is in the best interests of the children to have the children spend as much time with family members as possible in preference to care by non family members.

13) That equally sharing of costs of responsibilities relating to the children will remove conflict between parents which is in the best interests of the child.

14) That reducing child care costs and maximizing tax benefits to the parents is in the best interests of the parents as well as the child.

15) That flexibility and co-operation benefits both child and parents.

16) That the use of friendly and non adversarial language will reduce conflicts and feelings of hostility between parents and ensure that the child feels that both parents are of equal importance which will be in the best interest of the child.

DEFINITIONS

17) The following terms in this agreement are defined as following:

(a) "Resident Parent" refers to the parent with whom the child is residing, according to the schedule set out in this agreement. During the time that one parent assumes the resident parent role the other parent automatically becomes the non-resident Parent.

(b) "Non-Resident Parent" refers to the parent with whom the child is not residing, according to the schedule set out in this agreement. During the time that one parent assumes the non-resident parent role the other parent automatically becomes the resident Parent.

(c) "Child" refers to the child listed in paragraph 2 of this agreement who is the child of the husband and wife. If there is more than one child of the marriage then the word "child" in this agreement will be taken to mean children"

(d) "Family Law Act" refers to the Family Law Act of Ontario, 1986

(e) "Spring Break Holiday" refers to that portion of the calendar year designated as the spring break holiday by the school where the child attends.

(f) "School night" refers to the evening immediately preceding a normally scheduled school day at the school that the child attends. For children who are not of school age, this will also apply to the night prior to attendance at a regularly scheduled daycare or babysitting facility.

(g) "Christmas holiday period" - refers to that portion of the calendar year that the school where the child attends has designated as the Christmas holiday period

(h) "Summer holiday period" refers to that portion of the calendar year that the school where the child attends has designated as the summer holiday period

(i) "Long weekend" refers to any weekend where an additional holiday has been added immediately before or after the Saturday and Sunday weekend period as part of a holiday that is generally celebrated by others in the community.

(j) "Major Holiday" – a holiday which is at least three days and two nights in length, and which occurs more than 150 KM from home.

(k) "Immediate geographical area" – refers to the geographical area within a 200 km radius from the Residential parent's home.

(l) "Family Support Persons" – refers to those persons who have been requested to assist the family in complying with this parenting responsibility document and to ensure, to the best of their ability, that the bests interests of the child is being protected. Their duties to include but not limited to such duties as reviewing complaints by either party, providing third party witness to incidents, providing reports or evidence to other parties or to the court, etc.

CUSTODY/PARENTING

18) Both parents shall be considered equal and shall have equal custody and parental responsibility for the child.

RESIDENCY

19) The child will reside with each of the parents on a full and equal shared residency basis in accordance to the schedules set under this agreement. Neither of the parent’s homes will be designated a primary residence for the purposes of designating one parent the support payer and one the support recipient.

NAME OF THE CHILD

20) The name of the child will remain as per birth and will not be changed without the written consent of both parents. This provision shall be deemed to be a bar to any such application and may be filed with and shall be binding upon any officer of the Office of the Registrar General appointed under the Vital Statistics Act who received such application by either party in contravention of this provision.

Last edited by baldclub; 01-03-2014 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Add title
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