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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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Old 10-17-2016, 04:45 PM
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Default How do i approach breach of part of an order

The judge in first fcc made an order for access 6hrs every 3rd sunday of grandmother to 9yr old granddaughter, in that order he also put that nothing is to be discussed about the hearing or order to or in front of 9 yr old.

The 18 yr old step daughter was staying with grandmother and on a visit between 18yr old 9yr old and grandmother.....18 yr old witnessed grandmother telling the 9yr old about the whole last fcc ordeal that a judge made an order to visit and how grammy had to go to court to get an order to see her and some details about how daddy doesnt want grammy to see granddaughter....then told 9yr old that she cant have a pet unless she texts grammy that she wants to see her overnights every 2 weeks "please please please" so grammy can take that to court.

So I have a 2nd fcc tmrw to review the order...judge did not give any hints as to what might happen, but will bringing up the breach of order with judge immediately help a lot and is the judge just gonna give her a slap on the wrist and carry on....seemed like he took grandmas statements much more seriously than mine. I am almost certainly going to push it to trial as my daughter in my observations is affected by it and has cried and made weird statements about it all many times and seems stressed as am i.

I am assuming fcc is laid back and judge will just sternly warn grandma about breach of order, seems like just a mud slinging meeting anyhow....
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Old 10-17-2016, 05:01 PM
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is the CAS involved? Is the OCL involved? How do you plan on proving these things in court? Who is the 18 year old? Are they submitting an affidavit of what they witnessed ?
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Old 10-17-2016, 06:18 PM
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is the CAS involved? Is the OCL involved? How do you plan on proving these things in court? Who is the 18 year old? Are they submitting an affidavit of what they witnessed ?
The judge did not even read my affidavit at the last fcc, 18 year old is step daughter, what do you have to prove if you use witness and interview them? My last fcc just proved that I was evil dad refusing access and lieing and grandma was poor innocent grammy that needed access and judge seemed to believe anything that came out of her mouth. I offered to play an audio recording to prove a lie at the fcc and judge refused to listen. I was under the assumption that in a trial an affidavit with exhibits would not really be necessary if your witnesses would back up any statements you made or answer your questions to prove things.

Anyhow this next fcc is to just revisit the interim order made at the last one which expires tmrw. So a new one most likely will be made.

No OCL or CAS involved, should I ask for this or ask for anything else.
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Old 10-17-2016, 07:00 PM
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From what I have read in cases on CanLii judge's DO NOT believe it is kosher to audio or videotape children. So best not to bring that up.

I realize you are trying to PROVE something. The thing is, in family court, it's a given that everyone lies. If you really need something proven then you have to have irrefutable evidence (bank statements). If the matter is behavioral then you need professional clinical reports. Others on here will help you weigh the benefits or risks involved with involvement of OCL or CAS. One thing that I can see is that with the involvement of any other agency things will drag on at a snail's pace. If you can afford to bide your time then it very well may be worth it to you.

Don't be misled by what you perceive is a judge agreeing with something that someone says at a case conference. For all you know the judge is bored out of his mind and merely nodding to try to stay awake. If people drone on and on and discussion doesn't move then the judge will likely not want to waste any more time of the subject. It is important for you to be extremely well-organized when you go into these conferences. I'd have a point form list of things you want to cover in the conference - this should match up with your conference brief.
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Old 10-17-2016, 07:54 PM
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So I am sol. Demand trial and hope for best....so much for trying to look out for your childs best interests, Grandparents can play games and have fun and parents and kids come second, would think the grandparents have to do the proof work. There was no brief other than my affidavit/exhibits which meant nothing to him.
The audio recording was just to help if she broke through the door and managed to hit me or daughter with the hammer, I would have something in case she blamed me for anything that happened such as bruising on her arm from me defending myself, all it ended up getting was kid screaming and hammer hitting door 50 times...
All I can do is my best to do what I can to protect childs best interests. I guess if grandma brings text of child wanting overnights I can bring a letter from 18 year old sister saying grandma coerced her into doing the text and use it to counteract that issue.

Last edited by undersc0re; 10-17-2016 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undersc0re View Post
So I am sol. Demand trial and hope for best....so much for trying to look out for your childs best interests, Grandparents can play games and have fun and parents and kids come second, would think the grandparents have to do the proof work. There was no brief other than my affidavit/exhibits which meant nothing to him.
The audio recording was just to help if she broke through the door and managed to hit me or daughter with the hammer, I would have something in case she blamed me for anything that happened such as bruising on her arm from me defending myself, all it ended up getting was kid screaming and hammer hitting door 50 times...
All I can do is my best to do what I can to protect childs best interests. I guess if grandma brings text of child wanting overnights I can bring a letter from 18 year old sister saying grandma coerced her into doing the text and use it to counteract that issue.
did you call the police to report it?
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:44 PM
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You should remember that you would would have a different judge at trial. Case conference judge's are there to try to get parties to settle on many or most of the issues... to avoid trial. At a settlement conference typically discussion is supposed to be about how many days you anticipate the trial, who the witnesses are going to be, etc. I think people should suggest binding arbitration as opposed to trial. Arbitration (in Alberta it is a judge) hears both sides and tries to get parties to agree. Failing that the judge makes a binding decision. Arbitration is much less expensive than trial. No witnesses, just documents.

Something to have the other side consider? Binding arbitration is quite common in Alberta. Courts in Alberta have recognized that the process helps the congestion of the courts and they therefore fully endorse the process. Ordinary people can't afford the 50K retainer + cost of trial. It is no surprise that lawyers do not suggest this process to their clients (cause they don't make as much money and many lawyers simply have no experience with it). Do you have any idea how expensive it is to have expert witnesses testify? (clinical psychologists, accountants, etc).

If all you want is someone to make a decision and you don't have expert witnesses then I would strongly suggest binding arbitration. Also, the grandmother would not be a part of the process... rather it would just be you and your ex.

Last edited by arabian; 10-17-2016 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undersc0re View Post
So I am sol. Demand trial and hope for best....so much for trying to look out for your childs best interests, Grandparents can play games and have fun and parents and kids come second, would think the grandparents have to do the proof work. There was no brief other than my affidavit/exhibits which meant nothing to him.
The audio recording was just to help if she broke through the door and managed to hit me or daughter with the hammer, I would have something in case she blamed me for anything that happened such as bruising on her arm from me defending myself, all it ended up getting was kid screaming and hammer hitting door 50 times...
All I can do is my best to do what I can to protect childs best interests. I guess if grandma brings text of child wanting overnights I can bring a letter from 18 year old sister saying grandma coerced her into doing the text and use it to counteract that issue.

Perhaps I'm not understanding you... surely the grandmother is not attending the conference? Conference should be you, your lawyer, your ex and her lawyer and the judge. I would refuse to attend a conference with anyone else who is not a named party in your divorce/motion.

Honestly, if you can't handle the day-to-day drama of the grandmother's interference (which I totally understand) then you should probably get a professional involved. Others on here can give you advice on that.
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Old 10-17-2016, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by arabian View Post
Perhaps I'm not understanding you... surely the grandmother is not attending the conference? Conference should be you, your lawyer, your ex and her lawyer and the judge. I would refuse to attend a conference with anyone else who is not a named party in your divorce/motion.

Honestly, if you can't handle the day-to-day drama of the grandmother's interference (which I totally understand) then you should probably get a professional involved. Others on here can give you advice on that.
It is just me and mother inlaw, the ex never shows up to court or anything related such as these case conferences.
The initial court appearance was ex mother inlaws application for access order, asking for an overnight and evening, judge immediately put it to a family case conference.
First fcc judge gave her interim order for access a few months ago that expires at second fcc which we scheduled.
This second case conference is tomorrow and I expect ex mother inlaw to ask for overnights every 2 weeks as per a text she got from her 9yr old grand daughter asking for it.
I disagree with any access, but it will cost me dearly in more missed work, time, money and family stress to fight it, so it feels like I have to bow down and give up and the ex doesn't care at all, except that maybe the ex might get money from mother inlaw to do what she wants...other than that those 2 don't really talk.
I guess I can ask about binding arbitration or another route I can take, I thought a trial would be cheap with no lawyers, we both currently do not have one, and I could just get a doctors note introduced if allowed by judge.
Hopefully that helps you understand a little better.

When I told judge I disagree with the order he said he will make it anyways and the next step is trial, he looked at me sternly when he said that heh.

Last edited by undersc0re; 10-17-2016 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 10-17-2016, 11:31 PM
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Put one foot in front of the other and don't get ahead of yourself.

Keep things simple. You want what is best for your daughter. As long as you don't come across as merely smearing the grandmother out of spite and can offer real substantive reasons for not wanting her access increase, you should do ok.

Remember that should you decide to take the matter further (go to trial or arbitration) that everything decided on tomorrow can be changed.

You can ask the judge for solutions or alternatives. You might be surprised and end up receiving some useful advice.

I think it is quite peculiar that your ex isn't in attendance (unless she is incarcerated).
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