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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2017, 12:29 AM
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I cant speak to whether it is a material change, I dont know enough about that, but I think from a common sense perspective whether right of first refusal should beincluded in an agreement, it really depends on the frequency, length and whether it is day or over night. It seems that if mom is taking the child to grandparents home 5 nights a week, then maybe should be with dad. If the grandmother is coming over to the childs house and is just spending an hour or 2 with child, puts child to bed and mom is there when child wakes, then yes child should stay at home during moms parenting time. It makes sense now, why mom is also using a daycar during the mornings, probalby sleeping after a night shift. Also there is a big difference between a situation which occurs 5 times/week and once in awhile. I dont think those clauses should be so strict as to restrict grandparents time. If each parent has right of first refusal for all situations and all people, then the child could never spend a weekend with grandparents or a week at grandmas in the summer. Ive been contemplating having this included in our agreement for the length of time of a work day, so maybe have right of first refusal if gone for 8 hours, but I am worried ex would take that to the extreme and then say that children cant stay with grandparents ever. I would think that looking at the length, frequency and who would be important in determining if it is being used to keep child from parent, or just a once in awhile thing to maintain relationships with other important people, or an occasional need for a babysitter.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2017, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by blinkandimgone View Post
The kid is asleep. The kid would be asleep overnight regardless of where they are.
What happens before the kid goes to sleep? Daddy would read a story with her and thug her in, right? If I was in the army then I would agree with you. But I'm not in the army, I'm right here. Why should child miss out on this opportunity to be tucked in by dad 5 days a week and instead by grandmother ? Sure as hell wasn't anticipated that the grandmother would be doing that when the order was made. There is a clause to allow more time and it would reasonably be expected mom would be willing to allow ( and facilitate) maximum contact (and a relationship) with child and other parent, me, child's father - and not the other way around.


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Originally Posted by blinkandimgone View Post
It is fortunate that mom can have gramma look after the kid overnight since overnight daycares (which she is well within her rights to choose to use) cost a fortune. And the kid is fortunate to have that relationship with the extended family.
Shouldn't the child be fortunate to have that relationship with BOTH extended families ? There is no "The extended family", there is two. And why would a mom put child in daycare overnight as opposed to providing the father with opportunity to have more time? What is their motive and perception of the father ? Do they want to keep dad out of child that badly that they will choose grandmothers and strangers to keep child overnight as opposed to the child's very own father ?

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Originally Posted by blinkandimgone View Post
Sounds to me like you do not have a clear understanding of what constitutes a material change.
Forget the material change part for now. Why should child be with grandmother 5 consecutive nights a week when father is available ?

Last edited by trinton; 10-25-2017 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 10-25-2017, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by blinkandimgone View Post
https://family-law.freeadvice.com/fa...cumstances.htm

It would have to be a change that could not reasonably have been expected when the agreement was made. Was it unreasonable to expect that she would either seek employment or that her hours may change and that childcare would be needed? Absolutely not.

It was reasonable to expect should would be seeking employment, but not seeking employment and working late into evenings leaving child with daycare to almost her bed time, or working overnights and leaving child with grandmother - all when the father is available. Also there is a further access clause - why should further access be sanctioned when there is opportunity to provide father with more time without taking any away from mom ?

Your arguments are about the mother's rights - and nothing to do with the best interest of the child.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2017, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by denbigh View Post
I think from a common sense perspective whether right of first refusal should beincluded in an agreement, it really depends on the frequency, length and whether it is day or over night. It seems that if mom is taking the child to grandparents home 5 nights a week, then maybe should be with dad.
Agreed. And that is exactly what my lawyer said too.

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Originally Posted by denbigh View Post
Ive been contemplating having this included in our agreement for the length of time of a work day, so maybe have right of first refusal if gone for 8 hours, but I am worried ex would take that to the extreme and then say that children cant stay with grandparents ever. I would think that looking at the length, frequency and who would be important in determining if it is being used to keep child from parent, or just a once in awhile thing to maintain relationships with other important people, or an occasional need for a babysitter.
Grandparents are SOL. Parents first, then grandparents. Grandparents can apply for access if they want. Good luck to them.
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Old 10-25-2017, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by denbigh View Post
whether right of first refusal should beincluded in an agreement, it really depends on the frequency, length and whether it is day or over night.
My opinion: Right of first refusal is a terrible thing to include in any agreement. It almost guarantees * conflict *. The goal of a separation agreement should be to make * conflict * as unlikely as possible.

If the parents don't get along, RFR will be used as a weapon.

If the parents get along, RFR is unnecessary.

Last edited by blinkandimgone; 10-25-2017 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Conflict!
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:12 AM
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So then what is happening is mom works nights and kid goes to day care during the day while mom sleeps. This isnt a material change for custody. It may be a material change for ss/cs but you dont have off set.

You really should focus on your motion for 50/50 and stop getting in the weeds about all the other stuff. Great that mom is working but even with off set you dont get to dictate where kid spends time. Its no different than if you had kid on a pd day but had to work and put them in a day camp. Would you say to mom “ok she can skip day camp and go see you that day”? More than likely not.

All of these little nit picky things make you look unreasonable and confrontational. Focus on the argument that parenting time should be increased because you are a good parent, there are no issues, child is getting older and its a good thing. When you start adding grandma might smoke and mom works nights and the daycare provider is mean etc then the judge will roll their eyes and hate your case.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Janus View Post
My opinion: Right of first refusal is a terrible thing to include in any agreement. It almost guarantees arguments. The goal of a separation agreement should be to make arguments as unlikely as possible.

If the parents don't get along, RFR will be used as a weapon.

If the parents get along, RFR is unnecessary.
I agree 100%.

RFR only works with parents who get along therefor it is not necessary. Courts rarely order it because it only creates conflict. The objective of all this, as you state is to reduce conflict.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2017, 11:33 AM
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Conflict... that is the word I was looking for. I hate using the wrong word.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2017, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trinton View Post
It was reasonable to expect should would be seeking employment, but not seeking employment and working late into evenings leaving child with daycare to almost her bed time, or working overnights and leaving child with grandmother - all when the father is available. Also there is a further access clause - why should further access be sanctioned when there is opportunity to provide father with more time without taking any away from mom ?

Your arguments are about the mother's rights - and nothing to do with the best interest of the child.
Was it stated in the agreement that she could not seek certain types of employment or work at certain times?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2017, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rockscan View Post
Focus on the argument that parenting time should be increased because you are a good parent, there are no issues, child is getting older and its a good thing. When you start adding grandma might smoke and mom works nights and the daycare provider is mean etc then the judge will roll their eyes and hate your case.
Why should anything be changed if there are no issues ?

I know grandma smokes. Oh does she ever.

Mom works nights - I could have time when mom works nights. If 50/50 is in place, then I would agree with you. She can do whatever she wants on her time and leave child with whoever. But If I am only every other weekend, and there is room to expand access, the overnights would give me more time with child without taking any time away from mom. Just an option if 50/50 doesn't happen.

Daycare is unpleasant to deal and disrespectful towards me in front of child. The judge can hate my case all they want. Judge can roll their eyes all the want. The child notices tensions at daycare and it is not health for her.
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