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Old 11-19-2012, 04:14 PM
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Default criminal charges - negotiations & the truth!

Hi All.

For those who know the case. Today i had my prelim,
the negotiations started last thursday when the crown called and offered to withdraw two counts of sexual assault if i pleaded guilty to an assault charge, they were prepared to give me a conditional discharge with an agreement of good behavior for a year (no peace bond though). there as no discussion about the breach charges but my lawyer said he could get them to drop those as well. my lawyer said its a very good deal and that i should take it.

I slept over it, it was very tempting .. to get out of the trouble and what not, but at the end i would have lied if i entered a guilty plea ... my conscious did not allow me agree. I offered a counter offer.

I offered crown to withdraw both counts of breach and both counts of sexual assault in return of no prelim.

my counsel (contrary to my instructions) also offered them to drop all charges in return of a guilty plea on a count of breach.

crown agreed to the breach plea but wanted a peace bond, that gave me a chance to withdraw the offer form the table.

at the end the crown stated that they will withdraw the assault and sexual assault charges but proceed with the breach charges.

today i had my prelim. without my lawyer saying a word the crown got up and withdrew all charges. i am FREE

btw they ground of withdrawal were "not in public interest" i am not sure what that means.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:56 PM
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Congratulations, you stood your ground and came out with the best result possible!
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:05 PM
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Good to hear....it's frikkin' stressful, isn't it?!
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:15 PM
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Iam outrightly jealous of you and the best you can be - honest, truthfull and FREE!!!!! Please if you could PM any of your leftover "luck" from your (you didn't do it anyway) charges to me for my, I just can't wait for it, trial for the being accused of DV assault this January!!! Decision was put into stone today; I just couldn't plead guilty against testamony that was based on what if's, not one incident prior, but maybe the most compelling for me was to agree to the charges because it will be easier on people, that I am essentially guilty for being on disability and at least for the last while not bringing in 75K - that because mom goes to work it is right that I should be arrested and found guilty - and removed from our home???

So in my heart I just couldn't accept signing something that was not true, and at least for me I actually have nothing to lose..... a guilty plea will not impact me in any way worse than what the implication of willingly siigning that peace bond.

Last edited by ddol1; 11-19-2012 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:14 PM
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thanks all, i truly appreciate it, took my friends out for a mega feast, all of who who stood by me during this ordeal ... even though non of them is on this forum, and i wish that they never have to come here, still big salutes to all of them. and all of you who have helped me immensely with your advice and opinions throughout the year.

ddol1, reading your post i understand that they didnt announce the outcome? perhaps your lawyer should start laying grounds of appeal work as a preempt in case they find you guilty.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:10 AM
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hi sahibjee - no for me, I had a time deciding what was the "right thing to do" and I really tried to wiegh the consequences to the people, the truth and finally what would prevent this unrelated incident to get brought into the family law issues. So far she has not much to stand by and they are putting every and any smaller details in so far as it can be said now - to complicate what would otherwise be a straight forward equalization using the laws.

So my date is in January, things will be getting prepped for trial first - do not think there will be an appeal, logically anyway....
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sahibjee View Post
Hi All.

For those who know the case. Today i had my prelim,
the negotiations started last thursday when the crown called and offered to withdraw two counts of sexual assault if i pleaded guilty to an assault charge, they were prepared to give me a conditional discharge with an agreement of good behavior for a year (no peace bond though). there as no discussion about the breach charges but my lawyer said he could get them to drop those as well. my lawyer said its a very good deal and that i should take it.

I slept over it, it was very tempting .. to get out of the trouble and what not, but at the end i would have lied if i entered a guilty plea ... my conscious did not allow me agree. I offered a counter offer.

I offered crown to withdraw both counts of breach and both counts of sexual assault in return of no prelim.

my counsel (contrary to my instructions) also offered them to drop all charges in return of a guilty plea on a count of breach.

crown agreed to the breach plea but wanted a peace bond, that gave me a chance to withdraw the offer form the table.

at the end the crown stated that they will withdraw the assault and sexual assault charges but proceed with the breach charges.

today i had my prelim. without my lawyer saying a word the crown got up and withdrew all charges. i am FREE

btw they ground of withdrawal were "not in public interest" i am not sure what that means.
I will write something more meaningful later. I am too elated to hear this at this moment to write something meaningful.

Congratulations are in order.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
I will write something more meaningful later. I am too elated to hear this at this moment to write something meaningful.

Congratulations are in order.
this just shows what a kind soul you are Tayken, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddol1 View Post
hi sahibjee - no for me, I had a time deciding what was the "right thing to do" and I really tried to wiegh the consequences to the people, the truth and finally what would prevent this unrelated incident to get brought into the family law issues. So far she has not much to stand by and they are putting every and any smaller details in so far as it can be said now - to complicate what would otherwise be a straight forward equalization using the laws.

So my date is in January, things will be getting prepped for trial first - do not think there will be an appeal, logically anyway....
dont worry too much ddol - if the charges are false, it will come out at some point. if your case is in superior court (i.e. indictable offense) do not pick a judge and jury. just a judge. - a judge is more likely to see the truth than a jury in a DV case.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:34 AM
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I have modified the quote from sahibjee to clarify for some readers who may be reading this thread that are facing similar *abusive*, *unsubstantiated* and *false* allegations of "domestic violence" before the Criminal and Famliy Courts which, unfortunately is all too common before the Superior Court these days...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahibjee View Post
Hi All.

For those who know my case. Today I had my preliminary hearing, the negotiations started last Thursday when the Crown Attorney called and offered to withdraw two counts of sexual assault if I pleaded guilty to an assault charge, they were prepared to give me a conditional discharge with an agreement of good behavior for a year (no peace bond though).
It is not often that I get to recant the wise words of the Honourable Justice Pugsliy in one day but...

Shaw v. Shaw, 2008 ONCJ 130 (CanLII)
Date: 2008-03-25
Docket: 34/08
Parallel citations: 62 RFL (6th) 100
URL: CanLII - 2008 ONCJ 130 (CanLII)
Citation: Shaw v. Shaw, 2008 ONCJ 130 (CanLII)

Recanting the wise words of the very Honourable Justice Pugsliy in Shaw v. Shaw where this very Honourable Justice explicitly observes and states in case law:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw v. Shaw
I observe, however, that the damage of which I speak is not from the laying of the charge — this will happen in any event, regardless of the manner in which the defendant is brought before the court. The way that the criminal justice system approaches the commencement of these matters, however, often wreaks family law havoc with the family unit of the defendant and the complainant, and in particular the children of those parties. Family courts decide custody and access issues on the basis of statute and case law defining the best interests of the children. The criminal justice system pays no attention to such interests because it is not geared up to do so nor are the participants widely trained in how the actions of the system — from the officer who refuses to release the defendant at the station, to the duty counsel who allows the defendant to agree to inappropriate conditions of release out of expediency — effect the lives of the members of the defendant’s family.
A key point to remember, which sahibjee adhered to is to not "agree to inappropriate conditions of release out of expediency"!

I congratulate and applaud sahibjee on having the courage to stand up against the Criminal Justice System, which "pays no attention to such interests because it is NOT geared up to do so" and the Crown Attorney's, "peace officers" ("police") and other "experts" who are not "widely trained in how their (the) actions... effect the lives of the members of the defendant's family."

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahibjee View Post
There was no discussion about the breach (of peace order?) charges but my lawyer said he could get them to drop those as well. My lawyer said its a very good deal and that I should take it.
I again applaud and congratulate sahibjee for not taking the "very good deal" and forcing matters to the PROPER resolution when *psychologically abusive*, *unsubstantiated*, *false* and *frivolous* allegations are made to "peace officers" by possibly cognitively dysfunctional and possibly highly conflicted individuals as is observed in countless well researched psychological studies of possibly *mischievous* allegations made to "peace officers" in the context of Family Law proceedings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahibjee View Post
I slept over it, it was very tempting .. to get out of the trouble and what not, but at the end i would have lied if I entered a guilty plea ... My conscious did not allow me agree. I offered a counter offer.
Note the above quote and the "temptation" for which the Honourable Mr. Justice Pugsliy describes in the very relevant and now often relied upon jurisprudence... The relationship to this VERY Honourable Justice's own personal observations of litigants and sahibjee's recanting of the temptation to "get out of the trouble and what not".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw v. Shaw
These events have become routine and predictable in almost every allegation of spousal assault such that there is presumably some policy guiding the police and the Crown attorney and forestalling professional discretion in all such matters, no matter how remote the assault may be in time or indeed how trivial the contact. Spouses of every walk of life and often with completely unblemished prior character are routinely detained for a formal bail hearing for such assaults. Invariably, the defendant (not yet convicted) is excluded from his or her home and prevented from exercising custody of or access to the defendant’s children without any consideration of the factors that this court must apply by law before determining incidents of custody or access.
To continue my point...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaw v. Shaw
It is hard to contemplate any understanding by the police, or later the presiding Crown, as to the meaning and intent of the bail reform measures introduced some thirty-five years ago. The presumption, as I understand it, is that the lowest form of available release appropriate to the charge and the defendant should be applied — on a range from a promise to appear to a full-blown bail hearing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sahibjee View Post
I offered crown to withdraw both counts of breach and both counts of sexual assault in return of no preliminary hearing.
When before the Criminal Court all defendants are reminded that the balance for which the "Crown Attorney" needs to proceed on is "beyond reasonable doubt". Criminal matters are NOT judged on the "balance of probabilities". I again applaud and congratulate sahibjee for not folding to the pressures as observed and recanted in JURISPRUDENCE by the VERY Honourable Mr. Justice Pugsley in Shaw v. Shaw on this matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahibjee View Post
My counsel (contrary to my instructions) also offered them to drop all charges in return of a guilty plea on a count of breach.
Lawyers, often are trying to protect their clients and fall into the same realm of fear, that the Honourable Mr. Justice Pugsley identifies in Shaw v. Shaw as well. They want to "protect" their client and often persue that which *they think* is attainable in the best interests of their client. Unfortunate that the lawyer acted without instruction in contravention of the Law Society's Act.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahibjee View Post
Crown agreed to the breach plea but wanted a peace bond, that gave me a chance to withdraw the offer form the table.

At the end the crown stated that they will withdraw the assault and sexual assault charges but proceed with the breach charges.
This is because your attorney did not follow your instruction, made an offer and gave the Crown Attorney some feeling that the offer presented by your lawyer was an "admission against interest" to guilt in the breach and that they had "beyond reasonable doubt" evidence that they could get a conviction on the breech charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahibjee View Post
Today I had my preliminary hearing. Without my lawyer saying a word the crown got up and withdrew all charges. I am FREE
Lawyers who actually read this forum (of which I know there are many now but do not contribute) that litigants are becoming educated in the areas of law. They are coming to the "cloud" and they are gaining access to jurisprudence from public systems (CanLII) and are often making good decisions based on good advice drawn from jurisprudence.

General Comment to Legislators: It is a shame that sahibjee expressed "I am FREE" in this posting. Legislators and Justices reading this thread should in my honest opinion, feel shame that a citizen/resident of Canada, living in a democratically FREE society where by they are "innocent until proven guilty" did not feel free until the charges were all WITHDRAWN. I challenge Legislators to bring forward MUCH NEEDED changes to the 35 year old laws for which freedoms are being taken away from our citizens and residents and more importantly -- PARENTS TO THE NEXT GENERATION OF CITIZENS AND RESIDENTS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahibjee View Post
btw they ground of withdrawal were "not in public interest" i am not sure what that means.
In my opinion because they were frivolous, mischievous, psychologically abusive, unsubstantiated and completely false.

Good Luck!
Tayken

Last edited by Tayken; 11-20-2012 at 11:33 AM.
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2012, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayken View Post
I have modified the quote from sahibjee to clarify for some readers who may be reading this thread that are facing similar *abusive*, *unsubstantiated* and *false* allegations of "domestic violence" before the Criminal and Famliy Courts which, unfortunately is all too common before the Superior Court these days...



It is not often that I get to recant the wise words of the Honourable Justice Pugsliy in one day but...

Shaw v. Shaw, 2008 ONCJ 130 (CanLII)
Date: 2008-03-25
Docket: 34/08
Parallel citations: 62 RFL (6th) 100
URL: CanLII - 2008 ONCJ 130 (CanLII)
Citation: Shaw v. Shaw, 2008 ONCJ 130 (CanLII)

Recanting the wise words of the very Honourable Justice Pugsliy in Shaw v. Shaw where this very Honourable Justice explicitly observes and states in case law:



A key point to remember, which sahibjee adhered to is to not "agree to inappropriate conditions of release out of expediency"!

I congratulate and applaud sahibjee on having the courage to stand up against the Criminal Justice System, which "pays no attention to such interests because it is NOT geared up to do so" and the Crown Attorney's, "peace officers" ("police") and other "experts" who are not "widely trained in how their (the) actions... effect the lives of the members of the defendant's family."



I again applaud and congratulate sahibjee for not taking the "very good deal" and forcing matters to the PROPER resolution when *psychologically abusive*, *unsubstantiated*, *false* and *frivolous* allegations are made to "peace officers" by possibly cognitively dysfunctional and possibly highly conflicted individuals as is observed in countless well researched psychological studies of possibly *mischievous* allegations made to "peace officers" in the context of Family Law proceedings.



Note the above quote and the "temptation" for which the Honourable Mr. Justice Pugsliy describes in the very relevant and now often relied upon jurisprudence... The relationship to this VERY Honourable Justice's own personal observations of litigants and sahibjee's recanting of the temptation to "get out of the trouble and what not".



To continue my point...





When before the Criminal Court all defendants are reminded that the balance for which the "Crown Attorney" needs to proceed on is "beyond reasonable doubt". Criminal matters are NOT judged on the "balance of probabilities". I again applaud and congratulate sahibjee for not folding to the pressures as observed and recanted in JURISPRUDENCE by the VERY Honourable Mr. Justice Pugsley in Shaw v. Shaw on this matter.



Lawyers, often are trying to protect their clients and fall into the same realm of fear, that the Honourable Mr. Justice Pugsley identifies in Shaw v. Shaw as well. They want to "protect" their client and often persue that which *they think* is attainable in the best interests of their client. Unfortunate that the lawyer acted without instruction in contravention of the Law Society's Act.



This is because your attorney did not follow your instruction, made an offer and gave the Crown Attorney some feeling that the offer presented by your lawyer was an "admission against interest" to guilt in the breach and that they had "beyond reasonable doubt" evidence that they could get a conviction on the breech charge.



Lawyers who actually read this forum (of which I know there are many now but do not contribute) that litigants are becoming educated in the areas of law. They are coming to the "cloud" and they are gaining access to jurisprudence from public systems (CanLII) and are often making good decisions based on good advice drawn from jurisprudence.

General Comment to Legislators: It is a shame that sahibjee expressed "I am FREE" in this posting. Legislators and Justices reading this thread should in my honest opinion, feel shame that a citizen/resident of Canada, living in a democratically FREE society where by they are "innocent until proven guilty" did not feel free until the charges were all WITHDRAWN. I challenge Legislators to bring forward MUCH NEEDED changes to the 35 year old laws for which freedoms are being taken away from our citizens and residents and more importantly -- PARENTS TO THE NEXT GENERATION OF CITIZENS AND RESIDENTS.



In my opinion because they were frivolous, mischievous, psychologically abusive, unsubstantiated and completely false.

Good Luck!
Tayken
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sahibjee
There was no discussion about the breach (of peace order?) charges but my lawyer said he could get them to drop those as well. My lawyer said its a very good deal and that I should take it.

I had two count of breach of an undertaking made to a peace officer (on the first arrest they released me from the police station)

Great great post Tayken.
In addition to above, i think the few key factors to fighting the unjust justice system are

1- being informed. i think at average i must have spent at least two hours a day or more reading either criminal or family law documents. case law and other materials which most certainly influenced my direction.

2- Carefully analyzing what your lawyer is saying in light of your own knowledge. it is true that lawyers have a lot more knowledge than you do, but they are also human and may forget things or not fully understand the situation. I had hired a lawyer who has been to supreme court and has about 13 years of experience. he has fought some high profile cases as well but where he made mistakes i ensured that i catch them in time and fix them. (i.e not asking for certain parts of disclosure etc)

3- take some matters into your hands. i.e. in my case police had allowed me to go collect some of my belongings, but then rushed me out when i went there. normally you are allowed only once, i asked my lawyer to ask the crown or judge to let me go once again but he refused stating that neither would ever agree to that. I went to the crown myself and simply asked for another visit stating that i was rushed out, the crown agreed. (its a different story that my ex didnt let me or the cops in when we went the second time, and that the police refused to enforce the court order stating "the order only allowes you to go in, it dosnt ask her to let you in and she dosnt have to comply", i also took no further action as it was just too much at the time)

4-be on top of things, follow up on the state of your file, know which witnesses are going to be called against you and what they can possibly say. I went through each document and video statement my self, transcribed it my self (even though i had paid for it to be done) and made a list of contradictions the witness made during her interview, i also made a list of "trip" questions to trip her on her allegations in case of questioning. my lawyer told me to go to law school!
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