child support payments

[andyandy]

hi
We are negotiating child support payments. I understand this is for the kids living expenses. So no problems. Which includes, food, clothing and shelter. My kids are 18 and 16, if the house is paid for and she is living in the house, then there is no shelter payments(rent or morgage payments) can this be substituted with other kids expenses, eg car insurance or gas for the car for the 18 year to go to school or work?

Which is exactly covered in child support payments? Does anybody have a link to a good web site for this information?

thanks

[NBDad]

You can negotiate for less than table, but it's not recommended. It's especially not recommended to give her "assets in lieu" (ie. letting her keep the house in lieu of paying CS).

Here's the thing...CS is the right of the child. As long as the kids are still considered "children of the marriage", meaning they are UNDER the age of majority AND not enrolled (full time) in an educational institution then they are supposed to be supported. If your ex runs into issues in a year or two, she CAN go back to the court and ask for CS as well as retro payments.

Maybe you will be able to dodge that bullet, but this forum, and many others, are chock full of people who thought it "couldn't happen to me". Guess what, it did.

My advice: Save yourself the potential future hassle. Do fair equalization (marital assets - joints debts = total /2 = what you each get).

For things like the house, if the value is roughly equal to say, an accumulated pension, you can do things like trade off THOSE items but DON'T muck about with CS.

[HammerDad]

Child support is just to provide the necessities for the children. It is to ensure they are able to enjoy a similar lifestyle to that if their parents remained together. While that doesn't really make sense, as once the parents breakup, everyones life changes, but hey...who am I to complain....

But yeah, you can try to negotiate low c/s then guideline, but it isn't recommended. C/S is the right of the child, and unless you can provide a very strong argument, a court will not generally enforce an agreement that provides for a c/s amount less then guideline.

As for a break down of what c/s covers, that again will vary. Because c/s was meant to ensure lifestyle, what it covers will change household to household.

[frustratedwithex]

Originally Posted by andyandy

hi
We are negotiating child support payments. I understand this is for the kids living expenses. So no problems. Which includes, food, clothing and shelter. My kids are 18 and 16, if the house is paid for and she is living in the house, then there is no shelter payments(rent or morgage payments) can this be substituted with other kids expenses, eg car insurance or gas for the car for the 18 year to go to school or work?

Which is exactly covered in child support payments? Does anybody have a link to a good web site for this information?

thanks

I have been told because of the age of the children, similar to the poster, that the courts will look at both households budgets to determine how much of the household budget is for the children. If the children have part time jobs, the amounts for clothing etc. will not be included because it is expected that the child will use this part time income for their own use.

Originally Posted by HammerDad

Child support is just to provide the necessities for the children. It is to ensure they are able to enjoy a similar lifestyle to that if their parents remained together. While that doesn't really make sense, as once the parents breakup, everyones life changes, but hey...who am I to complain....

But yeah, you can try to negotiate low c/s then guideline, but it isn't recommended. C/S is the right of the child, and unless you can provide a very strong argument, a court will not generally enforce an agreement that provides for a c/s amount less then guideline.

As for a break down of what c/s covers, that again will vary. Because c/s was meant to ensure lifestyle, what it covers will change household to household.

This 'lifestyle' is what can be argued. Payer can state they are continuing to provide for the childs shelter, (room), and food, (board), but any extras are not appropriate for children of that age. It can be argued that to pay child support according to the tables will mean that the money is not benefiting the child, but becomes tax free income for the recipient.

If you are negotiating outside of court, you can agree to not use the tables. If both parties agree and the agreement is supported by lawyers, it will most likely just be rubber stamped by the court.

[dinkyface]

Originally Posted by andyandy

if the house is paid for and she is living in the house, then there is no shelter payments(rent or mortgage payments)

This is wrong. If she has 500K tied up in the house, then that is 500K that she COULD be (but is not) investing. Assuming an investment might return a very conservative 2.5% (after 20% tax, after 2% inflation), that is $12.5K per year lost. Unless you are betting that the house value increase (after maintenance/repair costs, after inflation) is going to be 2.5% each year. Not sure I'd want to make that bet right now.

[Rioe]

Originally Posted by andyandy

hi
We are negotiating child support payments. I understand this is for the kids living expenses. So no problems. Which includes, food, clothing and shelter. My kids are 18 and 16, if the house is paid for and she is living in the house, then there is no shelter payments(rent or morgage payments) can this be substituted with other kids expenses, eg car insurance or gas for the car for the 18 year to go to school or work?

Which is exactly covered in child support payments?

Just because the house is paid for, doesn't mean there aren't still shelter type expenses. There's still municipal taxes, water, gas, electricity, cable, internet, phone, maintenance, furniture, etc.

Child support covers regular, foreseeable expenses, such as food and clothing, but also gas and a car to drive them around, minor prescriptions, school expenses.

Basically, in my own mind at least, child support is for things that, if you were still together, if one parent used money on it, the other parent would go "oh, all, right, of course," upon being told. If it's something that the hypothetically together parents would have to discuss together and decide if they could afford it before doing it, or if it was a necessity they had to discuss how to afford, it would not be regular child support, but would fall under section 7 extraordinary expenses.

Typical distinctions:
school field trip to the local museum - covered by child support
senior high school trip to Europe - section 7
swimming lessons - covered by child support
competitive swimming for the kid who is really talented - section 7
occasional prescription for antibiotics - covered by child support
regular prescription for a chronic illness - section 7

day care: section 7 if both parents need it so they can work
university tuition: section 7 (handled slightly differently though - do research)

But what is there to negotiate? Years of case law has set down very specific guidelines. Monthly child support is calculated based on tables, the number of kids involved, and your incomes (depending on custody). The actual expenses don't matter. It isn't divided up or allocated by type of expense, it's just a regular amount paid from one parent to the other, set down by the guidelines. Section 7 expenses should be calculated proportionate to income, and not paid unless both parents agreed to the expense ahead of time.

The only sticking point is if one parent chooses not to work to support the children. Then, courts can impute the amount they are capable of making (usually at least full time minimum wage) and use this amount as their income in the calculation instead of zero.

The big thing to keep in mind is that guideline child support is considered the right of the child. You can't negotiate away a right that isn't yours. Even if you put something non-standard into your agreement, either party can change their mind later and take it to court, and the judge would very likely change it to standard guideline amounts.

[andyandy]

thanks for all your input. This seems to be a very gray matter that is not documented. I know i have to pay CS as per the table for 2 kids. But i do not want her to nickle and dime me for other expenses for an 18 year old. eg gas and parking lot passes, movie passes etc. I want her to be fair and that would be some of the CS lgoing towards the gas and parking lot passes. I'm already tight for money after the CS so i want to compile some of the basic items. 2 kids is about $1400 and thats alot of food, clothing, basic house needs for 1 month.

i well more input.

[HammerDad]

Originally Posted by andyandy

gas and parking lot passes, movie passes etc.

Unless the parking pass is $100+ each month AND for school, it wouldn't be a section 7 expense. Tell her you won't be contributing for gas/parking as those are not extraordinary expenses as per the Act.

Read up on section 7 of the family law act. It will give some guidance as to what is an eligible expense and what is not.

At 18 the child should probably be covering their own gas usage.

Movie passes etc are completely covered by child support and are not even close to being considered an extra-ordinary expense. Tell her to get bent if she asks to be reimbursed for them.

[andyandy]

ok thanks for the input. my son turns 18 at end of jUne. He was going to take the year off to travel. Do i still pay CS if he is not living at home during that duration? Once he finishes travelling then will go to school. He will be 19 and living at the ex house. So we have a RESP set aside for hime to cover 2- 3 years for tuition and books that we both paid 50/50 on with the ex. Does this change the CS payments or stays the same?

[HammerDad]

Originally Posted by andyandy

ok thanks for the input. my son turns 18 at end of jUne. He was going to take the year off to travel. Do i still pay CS if he is not living at home during that duration? Once he finishes travelling then will go to school. He will be 19 and living at the ex house. So we have a RESP set aside for hime to cover 2- 3 years for tuition and books that we both paid 50/50 on with the ex. Does this change the CS payments or stays the same?

If the child is not enrolled in school as a FULL-TIME student and they are over the age of 18, they are no longer considered a child of marriage and c/s ceases.

However, c/s can be revisited if/when the child re-enrolls in school.