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Divorce & Family Law This forum is for discussing any of the legal issues involved in your divorce.

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Old 11-25-2016, 06:25 AM
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Default Ad Hoc altering of parenting agreement.

It is a long painful story.

In short D9 and D12, shared and joint custody but horrible relationship with other parent.

In recent months, D9 has started expressing a desire to stay with mom just to sleep. It has been getting more pronounced. Their counselor is concerned because the desired end is to have our children feel easy in both homes but has suggested that we allow our daughters to stay at their mom's home to sleep in the nights and look to have some extra time during the days at their home here.

Here is the issue.

Other parent's position is simple. If D9 and sometimes D12 want to stay at their home there at t night, then adopt that as common practice but only have them spend extra time here if they start asking for it.

I.e. go from 50/50 to they still come to their home here on their regular days but sleep at the otheir other home EVERY night.

Now there are a number of issues which need to be addressed for our children, but for now, I am hoping that someone here might be someone who has a 50/50 schedule where the school-aged children do spend the majority (if not every night) with one parent and a proportionate amount of time with the other parent during the day.

There is an good chance that this will end up becoming a family assessment scenarion (a legal change to our existing parenting agreement will be required if any permanent change occurs).

The immediate priority, however, is being able to provide options for something which can be implemented which ensures appropriate time in both homes if the children are spending the majority of their nights with one parent, until whatever process will take place, can take place.

Thank you everyone
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Old 11-25-2016, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trix View Post
The immediate priority, however, is being able to provide options for something which can be implemented which ensures appropriate time in both homes if the children are spending the majority of their nights with one parent, until whatever process will take place, can take place.
It is hard to follow, but my interpretation is that you want a schedule where the kids sleep at other parent's house, but are still with you 50% of the time.

I'll make this easy: It is impossible.

D9 doesn't get to choose where she sleeps, and mom doesn't get to violate the court order unless you consent to it. Seems like you are about to (or have already) consented to it. It would be unwise to consent to this.

I'll say it again, a nine year old does not get to make that decision unless you allow her to make that decision. Don't allow her to make that decision.

In the alternative, prepare to pay table child support and be prepared to have your relationship with your daughter deteriorate even further once she is fully with crazy alienating mom.
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Old 11-25-2016, 08:48 AM
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Thank you for the reply. I have not consented to this and have made a principle matter clear:

We have had shared and joint custody for seven years on the same schedule and any amendment to that schedule will have to ensure that relatively equal parenting time is maintained to ensure that all familial relationships remain supported.

Tbis was broached with me yesterday. I have already set up a session with our daughters counselor for next week so that there is no confusion as to how I see us going forward in trying to ensure our daughters' requests are balanced with the absolute need to ensure that they maintain healthy and strong relationships euqally in both homes.

I had filed and (mistakenly) withdrawn a motio to have our daughters situation forwarded to the OCL. Ultimately, I believe that is exactly what will end up happening.

I would rather have avoided that but i have good reason to believe that she will continue to engage in behaviour that will serve to alienate our daughters.

I.e.

On two separate occasions she refused to facilitate contact between our daughters and her parents (our daughters grandparents). Both periods being approximately 1 year long.

She has completely cut ties with her brother (our daughters uncle). As a result our daughters have never met their only first cousin.

She has accused me of 1. Assaulting her, where anextensive police investigation found there to be no grounds to believe that I had actually or have ever had the intent to assault her 2. Abuse towards our daughters where CAS has closed our file stating that there is no indication of a use, where our daughters are clearly 'safe and comfortable' with me and that I am doing a 'great job'.

All of this is besides the facts that:

Since the time of separation which she requested I bought and have lived in the same home less than a kilometre away from where she continued to live with our daughters and hav been in a stable and loving relationship with my new spouse for over six years, while:

Our daughter's mother sold the matrimonial home just over a year after, moved into a smaller home, filed for bankruptcy, moved into her boyfriends home just over a year after that. Just over a year after that she moved out of her boyfriends home, suing him for something rather (which our daughters heard all a out from her) and into her third home with our daughters, still bankrupt.

I will not be just letting our daughter's slip away.
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Old 11-25-2016, 09:45 AM
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How does D9 get from your place to her mother's place?

I am trying to understand how D9 starts the evening at your place and ends up with her mother. Does the mother come to your house during your parenting time to pick up your daughter? Do you bring your daughter over to her mother's house?
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Old 11-25-2016, 09:55 AM
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Do you think Mom is putting the pressure on. Saying she is all alone and that the 9. Year old feel she needs to be at home to support her Mom?
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Old 11-25-2016, 10:15 AM
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I guess a small amount of background.

D9 started expressing this need to be at her mom's at night since july but at that point, it was a 1 off. Here and there. I was confused as to why it was happening but had grave concerns regarding pressure from the other parent. As part of my affidavit where I had first considered a family assesment I noted multiple occasions where both daughters had recounted their ther speaking negatively to the effect that I only wanted our daughters to live with me and that I was trying to buy their love.

Significantly, I included parts of the conversation where our daughter's had said that mommy had told them that D12 could chooses, at 12 years of age where she wanted to live and that "the courts wouldn't solit up siblings" Alarmingly, D9 stated "mommy said 'wouldn't it be nice if you just lived here and visited daddy sometimes'. There was a good deal more.

The only reason why i withdrew the motion was because mom started playing nice and agreed to have our daughter's counselling protected in a revised court order (she had withdrawn her consent on three separate occasions in the past...on one occasion because Ihad allowed our daughters to contt their grandparents on christmas eve...and no, I do not know what the connection there was).

In any case. What was a one off starting in july became a more regular request. Their counselor immediately stated that it was an unhealhty level of needed contact and that she would (and still intends) on trying to find out the root cause.

At present, their counselor has suggested that our daughters simpl know that they can go to their mom's in the evening and soend some extra time with us during the day, hoping she can get to the bottom of this need and have things work back to normal. Mom has taken the position (as of yesterday) that our daughters should simply be with her in the evening, and she will not tive up any time during the day.

So I am trying to address this unhealthy need that D9 is now experiencing while having every indication that mom is using it as a platform to have both daughters with her.

So, as had happened occasionay in the past, mom would come and pick her up (sometimes both D9 and 12).

Her expectation now is that i will be allowing it to happen all the time and I would th8nk she has probably already told our daughters it will always be the case.

It will not
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Old 11-25-2016, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trix View Post
Thank you for the reply. I have not consented to this and have made a principle matter clear:
That's good

Quote:
So, as had happened occasionay in the past, mom would come and pick her up (sometimes both D9 and 12).
In other words, you consented to it.

I don't understand why this is so difficult. Your daughter is 9. Stop consenting to losing your parenting time.

A common analogy on this forum is school. If your daughter said she didn't want to go to school, you would not give her that option. Your daughter might be upset at first, but parenting time is not optional at 9 years old.
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Old 11-25-2016, 01:18 PM
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Life sucking day.

Have the mother that I will not consent to our daughters being at her home every night.

Advised their counselor of mother's twist on what was presented by way off cc'd emails.

Have a meeting with my lawyer on Monday re moving forward with re-filing motion for family assessment.

Contacted CAS and have recieved consent consent forms for release of information.

Now the comes the hard part of finding out what mom has fed D9 and D12 over the past 24hrs and hoping we can just get back where we were.
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Old 11-30-2016, 08:53 AM
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Ended up being a very difficult weekend.

In short, girls had talked about and ex had been pushing for D9 and D12 to stay with her every night and just spend our 'daytimes' together unless they explicitly stated they wanted to stay at their home here.

This was initially supported in the hope they would feel less pull between the homes. The less pull you feel, the less you think about it, the less you think about needing to leave their home here and sleep at their mom's, the more you just stay home, we slip back into what we had always had, equal time with families (special events etc accomodated for obviously). My concern: other parent would use this as a platform to have our daughters just stay with her.

Friday two things happen. They want to go to their mom's that night but deffinately want to stay home the next and 'will let me know' (yes...that control is extreme but there was a logic as per their counselor)

Simultaneously i receive an email from the other parent that she will pick our girls up at three specific times over the weekend. I respond letting her know they can be picked up the that night, the saturday they will be staying home and I will let her know about Sunday. I receive a series of nasty emails with the general them that I am not in control and we have to defer to our children (although i already was). I send no responses.

After she picks them up I recieve another email in regards to them staying the following 'saturday night': "if you won't allow this, then maybe they shouldn't go back in the morning". I reply only that i will pick them up in AM.

The next morning I do and all seems well but daughter, when asked if she slept ok the night previous says "mom says that if we want to stay her tonight, it's ok, she will support us, but she doesn't think it's a good idea because then you will think you're in control". That was great to hear regarding what is our regular family time together.

Regardless, we have a great day together as always. Daughters stay home. Sunday all is well. Just before bed D12 says she wants to go to other parent, D9 is upset. She says 'mommy will be upset because I told her yesterday that I might go' and, 'I told [counselor] that I want to stay at mommies". I reassure her that neither will be upset with her but she is in tears.

D12 calls mom to come pick her up. D9 gets on the phone. I go see what is happening, she is in tears saying 'but I want to stay' 'I don't know, I just don't want to go'. I put my ear right to the phone (no I don't care that I finally listened in). Other parent "it's ok, there's nothing to be sorry about. So, you know that (counselor) stuck up for you and talked to daddy and now you're changing your mind? Is that it?'. D9:

Remember that the only reason why I was allowing any of this was because I heard that this had been discussed on thursday when our daughters were at home with their mom. They had already been told that we were going to try this for a bit and had scheduled an appointment with the counselor for OP and I this week to discuss the possibility of trying an ad hoc schedule.

No more.

We will meet. But I have already contacted the counselor. There is no support for our relationships and what seems an effort to undermine them. The only reason for any of this was to try and reduce our daughter's stress while the counselor tried to work with our daughter's to get to the bottom of why it was they sometimes feel a need to be with their mom during the night. Given what I heard both from my daughter and from OP this weekend I have a pretty good idea.

We have a court ordered schedule, this is too much pressure for our daughters and we are the parents. We have to make the decisions.

I don't want our daughter's to think that I'm not listening, but we I will have to work, with the help of the counselor and other family to reduce whatever stress our daughters' feel while I try to make sure they do not get pulled away from so much of their family because of guilt and an expectation to please. They will get older, and I know that they may make their own decisions about where they want to live on occasion. I know that they may not always be the decisions I would like them to make, but I will love with them.

Now, though, at 9 and 12, I can't let the conflict, guilt and the expectation of them ha ing to make the decision themselves pull them away from either of their home environments. I really they can get through this healthy. I intend on doing everything I can to make sure they do.

Just a bit of a rant about a tough time for our girls.
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Old 11-30-2016, 09:22 AM
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Ended up being a very difficult weekend.

In short, girls had talked about and ex had been pushing for D9 and D12 to stay with her every night and just spend our 'daytimes' together unless they explicitly stated they wanted to stay at their home here.

This was initially supported in the hope they would feel less pull between the homes. The less pull you feel, the less you think about it, the less you think about needing to leave their home here and sleep at their mom's, the more you just stay home, we slip back into what we had always had, equal time with families (special events etc accomodated for obviously). My concern: other parent would use this as a platform to have our daughters just stay with her.

Friday two things happen. They want to go to their mom's that night but deffinately want to stay home the next and 'will let me know' (yes...that control is extreme but there was a logic as per their counselor)

Simultaneously i receive an email from the other parent that she will pick our girls up at three specific times over the weekend. I respond letting her know they can be picked up the that night, the saturday they will be staying home and I will let her know about Sunday. I receive a series of nasty emails with the general them that I am not in control and we have to defer to our children (although i already was). I send no responses.

After she picks them up I recieve another email in regards to them staying the following 'saturday night': "if you won't allow this, then maybe they shouldn't go back in the morning". I reply only that i will pick them up in AM.

The next morning I do and all seems well but daughter, when asked if she slept ok the night previous says "mom says that if we want to stay her tonight, it's ok, she will support us, but she doesn't think it's a good idea because then you will think you're in control". That was great to hear regarding what is our regular family time together.

Regardless, we have a great day together as always. Daughters stay home. Sunday all is well. Just before bed D12 says she wants to go to other parent, D9 is upset. She says 'mommy will be upset because I told her yesterday that I might go' and, 'I told [counselor] that I want to stay at mommies". I reassure her that neither will be upset with her but she is in tears.

D12 calls mom to come pick her up. D9 gets on the phone. I go see what is happening, she is in tears saying 'but I want to stay' 'I don't know, I just don't want to go'. I put my ear right to the phone (no I don't care that I finally listened in). Other parent "it's ok, there's nothing to be sorry about. So, you know that (counselor) stuck up for you and talked to daddy and now you're changing your mind? Is that it?'. D9:

Remember that the only reason why I was allowing any of this was because I heard that this had been discussed on thursday when our daughters were at home with their mom. They had already been told that we were going to try this for a bit and had scheduled an appointment with the counselor for OP and I this week to discuss the possibility of trying an ad hoc schedule.

No more.

We will meet. But I have already contacted the counselor. There is no support for our relationships and what seems an effort to undermine them. The only reason for any of this was to try and reduce our daughter's stress while the counselor tried to work with our daughter's to get to the bottom of why it was they sometimes feel a need to be with their mom during the night. Given what I heard both from my daughter and from OP this weekend I have a pretty good idea.

We have a court ordered schedule, this is too much pressure for our daughters and we are the parents. We have to make the decisions.

I don't want our daughter's to think that I'm not listening, but we I will have to work, with the help of the counselor and other family to reduce whatever stress our daughters' feel while I try to make sure they do not get pulled away from so much of their family because of guilt and an expectation to please. They will get older, and I know that they may make their own decisions about where they want to live on occasion. I know that they may not always be the decisions I would like them to make, but I will love with them.

Now, though, at 9 and 12, I can't let the conflict, guilt and the expectation of them ha ing to make the decision themselves pull them away from either of their home environments. I really they can get through this healthy. I intend on doing everything I can to make sure they do.

Just a bit of a rant about a tough time for our girls.
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