Access & change of address

[gbeam]

Just one of many issues in my divorce proceedings, but the most pressing at the momement.

In the process of getting a divorce, our daughter (age 10) lives with my wife and we are awaiting the findings of an OCL clinical investigation as ordered by the court to determine custody & mobility issues.

Long story short: In August, my wife has me arrested on accusation of assault (she claims took place in May, then claims took place in February) resulting in a me being released on bail, conditions include no direct/indirect contact, stay 500 meters away from home, the "usual" I take it. She then files for divorce and obtains numerous ex-parte motions including a restraining order against me duplicating the conditions of my bail, but also adding no direct/indirect contact with my daughter.

We go to court in September, I obtain supervised access (via mutually agreed upon 3d parties) with my daughter every Saturday (10:00AM-4:00PM). Pick-ups & drop-offs conducted by 3rd parties due to 500 meter restriction.

In November, we're back in court, I obtain revised access, unsupervised, every Saturday from 10AM-8:30PM, with me picking up our daughter from their residence. Her lawyer argued that I should not be allowed to pick up from the home based on her clients fear and the existing restraining orders, but the judge decided otherwise - the new order (Superior court btw) modifies existing restraining orders & recognisance so that I am not in breach with the pick-ups & drop-offs. I ring the doorbell, stand curb-side, she opens the door, our daughter comes out. We do not speak. Drop offs are done in the same fashion. This has been in place for almost 3 months without incident.

All this was done while I was able to retain a lawyer. Which is no longer the situation - 5 months and $20,000 later, I had to let him go as I can no longer afford to keep him on - and there haven't even been a case conference as of yet.

She is now moving in less than 10 days, and her lawyer is refusing to give me the new address to pick my daughter up from, insisting that pick-ups and drop-offs will now be in a public location. She is justifying this by stating her client is entitled to her "privacy" and is concerned about her safety (she has claimed this from day one). I have had zero contact with her apart from the pick-ups and drop-offs stated above.

My position is that as the order specifically states pick-ups & drop-offs are to be done at the home and does not reference the prior address specifically, that the order stands and it should continue to be such. As well, do I not have the right to know where our daughter is living regardless ?

So - do I press her for the address stating the above, and if so, what are my options if she refuses to give me the address regardless?

Also, do I run into any legal ramifications by agreeing to pick-up my daughter in a public place (as in her then using that to establish some sort of "status quo")?

Any help or advice would be greatly greatly appreciated.

[NBDad]

She is now moving in less than 10 days, and her lawyer is refusing to give me the new address to pick my daughter up from, insisting that pick-ups and drop-offs will now be in a public location. She is justifying this by stating her client is entitled to her "privacy" and is concerned about her safety (she has claimed this from day one). I have had zero contact with her apart from the pick-ups and drop-offs stated above.

My position is that as the order specifically states pick-ups & drop-offs are to be done at the home and does not reference the prior address specifically, that the order stands and it should continue to be such. As well, do I not have the right to know where our daughter is living regardless ?

Yes, you have a right to know where the child is living. Is she moving the child out of the current school zone? I'd be all over that dude.

So - do I press her for the address stating the above, and if so, what are my options if she refuses to give me the address regardless?

I would respond to the lawyer that you will be following the current court order until such time as it is modified by a judge. If her client feels that the existing order needs to be modified to include a pick up/drop off at a public location, then she should feel free to make motion to the court to explain her reasoning after months of status quo.

Include that you do not agree to her unilateral decision to move the child to an unknown location and are requesting that the new address be provided immediately so you may follow the existing order as written as well as to determine if the child has been moved to a new school zone, which may impact their educational successes.

If they refuse to provide the new address, then you go to the old address on your access time. If the child is not made available for your parenting time, you go, get a pack of gum from the nearest store. Save the receipt so you can prove date/time/location, and then immediately fire off an email to her lawyer indicating that her client has denied your parenting time as per the existing order, and that you are again requesting the address so you may fulfil the order as written. Indicate you are also requesting make up time effective immediately, and for them to provide you 3 dates/times that would be acceptable within 48 hours.

Also, do I run into any legal ramifications by agreeing to pick-up my daughter in a public place (as in her then using that to establish some sort of "status quo")?

You already know the answer to this one. If you agree to the public place, look forward to it being brought up in court. Obviously you are giving nonverbal agreement that she has something to fear from you. If they actually GIVE you a public location, respond that you do not agree to their unilateral decision to change the order, and request they provide the address. Go and get the kid, but file motion with the court to compel her to provide her address and to clarify the order as written.

[HammerDad]

One point to NB's (good) advice.

If they give you a location to go to get your kid, I would go there to exercise my parenting time.

I would still send the letter to their lawyer stating that you are entitled to contact details for your child, as if there were an emergency, how would you contact your ex? It is in the best interests of the child that you know her location and that you intend on continuing to abide by the existing orders.

That documents your disapproval with there unilateral decision to go against the court order. It shows you are trying to be reasonable and act in the best interests of the child, you are still going to abide by the court order. But you need this info.

But get your kid. It isn't worth not seeing your child. The court probably wouldn't give you much sympathy for a denial of access claim if they tell you to pick up your child at location B instead of location A.

Also, how much notice did they give regarding the move? If it was limited, I would state you don't agree with relocating the child, especially should the relocation adversly affect your parenting time or if it changes what school the child goes to.

[gbeam]

Thank you very very much for the quick reply.

Originally Posted by NBDad

Yes, you have a right to know where the child is living. Is she moving the child out of the current school zone? I'd be all over that dude.

From what my daughter has told me, I have an idea of where they have moved, and she has already been told she will be attending a new school. Being in Toronto, moving even a block away can put you in a new school zone, and this most certainly did. But as she has "de facto" custody due to my arrest, I was unaware of being able to do anything about it.

Originally Posted by NBDad

I would respond to the lawyer that you will be following the current court order until such time as it is modified by a judge. If her client feels that the existing order needs to be modified to include a pick up/drop off at a public location, then she should feel free to make motion to the court to explain her reasoning after months of status quo.

Include that you do not agree to her unilateral decision to move the child to an unknown location and are requesting that the new address be provided immediately so you may follow the existing order as written as well as to determine if the child has been moved to a new school zone, which may impact their educational successes.

If they refuse to provide the new address, then you go to the old address on your access time. If the child is not made available for your parenting time, you go, get a pack of gum from the nearest store. Save the receipt so you can prove date/time/location, and then immediately fire off an email to her lawyer indicating that her client has denied your parenting time as per the existing order, and that you are again requesting the address so you may fulfil the order as written. Indicate you are also requesting make up time effective immediately, and for them to provide you 3 dates/times that would be acceptable within 48 hours.

Thank you - you've phrased it much as I had hoped.

Originally Posted by NBDad

You already know the answer to this one. If you agree to the public place, look forward to it being brought up in court. Obviously you are giving nonverbal agreement that she has something to fear from you. If they actually GIVE you a public location, respond that you do not agree to their unilateral decision to change the order, and request they provide the address. Go and get the kid, but file motion with the court to compel her to provide her address and to clarify the order as written.

I was afraid of as much. But if they DO provide me a public location, and I again respond that I do not consent to the change, do I show up to the new location in hopes they bring her regardless of my non consent, or do I go to the old location as per above to document the fact I was not allowed the ordered access - again, the order stipulates pick ups/drop offs at "the home", and does not have an actual actual street address/location. I'm of the position the judge worded it as such as she knew a move may be imminent - but of course her lawyer will disgree I'm sure.

[NBDad]

Yep, good clarification. My point to going to get the kid at the last known address was only if they don't provide you an alternate location.

If they do, suck it up, go see your kid and spend the time with them. Make damn sure you document your disapproval of the unilateral decision to not follow the court order. (technically they are in contempt of court by not following it)

If they DON'T give you either the new address OR an alternate public location, you go to the old place and follow the advice I gave you. If nothing else, it goes to show you trying to exercise your parenting time, and your ex willfully denying it.

[Tayken]

Originally Posted by HammerDad

One point to NB's (good) advice.

If they give you a location to go to get your kid, I would go there to exercise my parenting time.

I would still send the letter to their lawyer stating that you are entitled to contact details for your child, as if there were an emergency, how would you contact your ex? It is in the best interests of the child that you know her location and that you intend on continuing to abide by the existing orders.

That documents your disapproval with there unilateral decision to go against the court order. It shows you are trying to be reasonable and act in the best interests of the child, you are still going to abide by the court order. But you need this info.

But get your kid. It isn't worth not seeing your child. The court probably wouldn't give you much sympathy for a denial of access claim if they tell you to pick up your child at location B instead of location A.

Also, how much notice did they give regarding the move? If it was limited, I would state you don't agree with relocating the child, especially should the relocation adversly affect your parenting time or if it changes what school the child goes to.

To add to it all...

You can make a request for the information under Rule 20 if you are before the court for the information on the residential address. Just download Form 20, write out a basic one liner for the residential address information and sign it. No need to file it or anything... Just ship it off to the lawyer.

Basically, the lawyer should compel the other party to disclose what you have already been told you should know. Should they go on motion and not provide the information. Sight Rule 20, attach the request, note the date it was served and the judge will not be impressed with the other party.

Use the Rules. Disclosure is disclosure.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[Tayken]

Originally Posted by Tayken

To add to it all...

You can make a request for the information under Rule 20 if you are before the court for the information on the residential address. Just download Form 20, write out a basic one liner for the residential address information and sign it. No need to file it or anything... Just ship it off to the lawyer.

Basically, the lawyer should compel the other party to disclose what you have already been told you should know. Should they go on motion and not provide the information. Sight Rule 20, attach the request, note the date it was served and the judge will not be impressed with the other party.

Use the Rules. Disclosure is disclosure.

Good Luck!
Tayken

FYI: Another parent on this forum followed the above advice on Form 20 as a self represented litigant and the solicitor on the other side coughed up the residential address in about 2 hours after they served the solicitor with their Form 20 request.

No one wants to go on motion or questioning and explain to a judge why they can't provide the residential location of children.

Good Luck!
Tayken

[gbeam]

Originally Posted by HammerDad

One point to NB's (good) advice.

If they give you a location to go to get your kid, I would go there to exercise my parenting time.

I would still send the letter to their lawyer stating that you are entitled to contact details for your child, as if there were an emergency, how would you contact your ex? It is in the best interests of the child that you know her location and that you intend on continuing to abide by the existing orders.

Good point - I'm sure they would insist if there was an emergency, I still have the ability to call as the phone number has not changed.

Originally Posted by HammerDad

That documents your disapproval with there unilateral decision to go against the court order. It shows you are trying to be reasonable and act in the best interests of the child, you are still going to abide by the court order. But you need this info.

But get your kid. It isn't worth not seeing your child. The court probably wouldn't give you much sympathy for a denial of access claim if they tell you to pick up your child at location B instead of location A.

That is my dilema - I do not want to give up any of my access, but am afraid if I do not consent, they will simply not bring her to their suggested pick-up location and I will not get to see her.

Originally Posted by HammerDad

Also, how much notice did they give regarding the move? If it was limited, I would state you don't agree with relocating the child, especially should the relocation adversly affect your parenting time or if it changes what school the child goes to.

One of the many issues - I was not directly informed of her move date until yesterday, although through a named 3rd party, I was aware they were indending to move "on or about Feb 15th" - they gave this notice to the landlord last week, who then informed me. As it stands, they have apparently already moved into the new location, but are not turning over possession of the old residence as they still have items to collect.

[HammerDad]

Go, get your kid on your scheduled time. Advise them, in writing, that you don't agree with their unilateral decision to go against the temporary orders. However, that you expect to continue with your scheduled parenting time.

Also advise them that you don't agree with their unilateral decision to relocate the child and their refusal to provide you with proper contact details for the child.

A judge isn't likely going appreciate their actions. Be on record stating they didn't provide adequate notice, nor did they consult you about changing the child's school. They haven't provided you with full contact details for the child, which you believe to be in everyones best interests.

Be the reasonable party. Focus all your actions on the best interests of the child. Your ex is your ex. Your focus is not your ex, your focus is solely on your kid. Agree to continuing with the current provisions for pickups and dropoffs.

Oh, and one thing. When you do pick-ups and drop-offs, you do have a witness with you or a digital voice recorder? You don't want to get hit with a trumped up charge again, so protect your butt.

[gbeam]

Originally Posted by Tayken

To add to it all...

You can make a request for the information under Rule 20 if you are before the court for the information on the residential address. Just download Form 20, write out a basic one liner for the residential address information and sign it. No need to file it or anything... Just ship it off to the lawyer.

Basically, the lawyer should compel the other party to disclose what you have already been told you should know. Should they go on motion and not provide the information. Sight Rule 20, attach the request, note the date it was served and the judge will not be impressed with the other party.

Use the Rules. Disclosure is disclosure.

Good Luck!
Tayken

Can you please clarify "before the court"? I assume that you mean there being a case number and a continuing record, correct?

Thus far, I've been served with an ex-parte motion, and 2 additional motions, all of which have gone before different judges and have had orders made - but as it stands, we have not yet had a case conference, and no return date has been set on any of the outstanding issues - as a matter of fact, the only thing resolved so far was a CPL being dismissed, the involvement of the OCL, and temporary orders with regards to CS/SS and visitation.