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Domestic Violence Dealing with abuse and violence. Getting support and help.

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Old 08-19-2012, 01:50 PM
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Default What's the Matter with Memory?

Elizabeth Loftus: What's the Matter with Memory? - FORA.tv Videos

A lot of people come to this forum with allegations of past "memories" of intimate partner abuse and child abuse. Recently a poster recanted a "memory" of their children being struck by a parent in years past.

Elizabeth Loftus is an interesting researcher in the area of false memories, the impact of hearsay and the reality of hearsay and human memory.

Elizabeth Loftus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The misinformation effect refers to the finding that exposure to misleading information presented between the encoding of an event and its subsequent recall causes impairment in memory.[1][2] This effect occurs when participants' recall of an event they witnessed is altered by introducing misleading postevent information.[3] It is a prime example of retroactive interference, which occurs when information presented later interferes with the ability to retain previously encoded information. Essentially, the new information that a person receives works backward in time to distort memory of the original event.[2] The misinformation effect has been studied for over 30 years. Elizabeth Loftus is one of the most influential researchers in the field.

The misinformation effect reflects two of the cardinal sins of memory: suggestibility, the influence of others' expectations on our memory; and misattribution, information attributed to an incorrect source. Research on the misinformation effect has uncovered concerns about the permanence and reliability of memory.[4]

Misinformation effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.amazon.com/The-Myth-Repre.../dp/0312141238

Last edited by Tayken; 08-19-2012 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 08-19-2012, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
could it be that canadians are some of the heaviest pot smokers?
How marijuana impairs memory | Science | guardian.co.uk
Might be a better discussion for the "cannabisculture.com" website.
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Old 08-19-2012, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
thought that went down when marc emery got extradited?

back to your original post was this tayken into account as one of the possibilities that it could be a potential problem with memory?
Having read many of the person in question's studies substance abuse is a major topic of research on the study of memory. But, is not the "absolute" reason for memory issues. It is just a contributing factor to many of the other factors and challenges facing hearsay driven by "memory". You can't impute absolute logic that all memory issues are substance abuse related and the above mentioned expert relates a variety of different factors that impact human memory far beyond just it being all rooted to substance abuse issues in the person projecting false memories.

Substance abuse is just an additional factor considered when evaluating the memory (hearsay) being recanted and substance abuse only makes the issues more easy to identify.

In many cases substance abuse is not even an element to the false memory but, the other elements of the theory supporting the matter... With time and review of the expert in question's materials a "resourceful" person could find a lot of excellent material to support counter arguments to hearsay brought forward against them before the court and excellent strategies for addressing and responding to the hearsay (possibly false memories) in a relevant, supported and cogent manner.

Last edited by Tayken; 08-19-2012 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 08-19-2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
i dont recall anything about abuse
Using a narcotic to the point of creating memory issues is substance abuse. You may disagree with me here. A one time use of a narcotic doesn't generally have a long-term impact unless it is an overdose of a psychotropic narcotic.

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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
in the article simplly use. i dont get how you jump to the conclusion that i was refering to abuse.
Not sure how you got the impression that I was "jumping to a conclusion" which is properly defined as:

Quote:
Jumping to conclusions (also rushing to conclusions) means "to judge or decide something without having all the facts; to reach unwarranted conclusions".[1][2] Because it involves making decisions without having enough information to be sure you are right, this can result in badly made or rash decisions. This action is be associated with impulsiveness and can be a good or bad trait.

Three specific subtypes are:[3][4]

Mind reading – sense of access to special knowledge of the intentions or thoughts of others
Fortune telling – inflexible expectations for how things will turn out before they happen
Labeling – overgeneralizations done because of labelling all the members of a group with the characteristics seen in some, i.e., it involves using an unfavourable term to describe a complex person or event
Jumping to conclusions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you sugessting that the use of the term "substance abuse" is "labeling" or an overgeneralizations . Whom was I "labeling"? You seem to have taken personal offense. Have you been labeled in the past as an abuser of narcotic substances?

Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
If you are going to get onto abuse lets look at something a little more tangible like the over use of the stimulant caffeine and its effect in forming memories.
The above mentioned expert has studied the impact of stimulants such as caffeine in their very long and successful career. You can read the papers if you would like... The expert in question has published countless publications and some in that very area of study...

So have other experts for example (Google search):

Caffeine's effects on true and false memory. [Psychol Rep. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

Caffeine and Memory

Et all...

Not sure what you are trying to communicate?

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
no offence tayken but as far as my label recovering alcoholic wth 12 years in so knock yourself out doesnt bother me much if that was your intention.
I would actually debate that you are a "recovered" person in that matter and no I wouldn't use that against you as it is irrelevant if you truly have recovered. In fact, it would only demonstrate in my opinion someone's inability to recognize that people are capable of changing if they were to use your past life challenges against you and you are indeed "recovered".

It was not my intention and would not bring any benefit to the debate. Furthermore, I requested disclosure regarding the "label" to better understand a potentially "emotional' reaction to the use of the terms and for no other improper purpose. It was to better understand your relationship to the "term" and relationship to "abuse".

Quote:
Public health definitions

Source: A Public Health Approach to Drug Control in Canada, Health Officers Council of British Columbia, 2005

Public health practitioners have attempted to look at drug abuse from a broader perspective than the individual, emphasizing the role of society, culture and availability. Rather than accepting the loaded terms alcohol or drug "abuse," many public health professionals have adopted phrases such as "substance and alcohol type problems" or "harmful/problematic use" of drugs.

The Health Officers Council of British Columbia — in their 2005 policy discussion paper, A Public Health Approach to Drug Control in Canada — has adopted a public health model of psychoactive substance use that challenges the simplistic black-and-white construction of the binary (or complementary) antonyms "use" vs. "abuse". This model explicitly recognizes a spectrum of use, ranging from beneficial use to chronic dependence (see diagram to the right).

Medical definitions

In the modern medical profession, the three most used diagnostic tools in the world, the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM),the World Health Organization's International Statistical Classification of Diseases and ICRIS Medical organization Related Health Problems (ICD), no longer recognize 'drug abuse' as a current medical diagnosis. Instead, DSM has adopted substance abuse[3] as a blanket term to include drug abuse and other things. ICD refrains from using either substance abuse or drug abuse, instead using the term "harmful use" to cover physical or psychological harm to the user from use. Physical dependence, abuse of, and withdrawal from drugs and other miscellaneous substances is outlined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV-TR) ). Its section Substance dependence begins with:

Substance dependence When an individual persists in use of alcohol or other drugs despite problems related to use of the substance, substance dependence may be diagnosed. Compulsive and repetitive use may result in tolerance to the effect of the drug and withdrawal symptoms when use is reduced or stopped. These, along with Substance Abuse are considered Substance Use Disorders…
—[3]

However, other definitions differ; they may entail psychological or physical dependence,[3] and may focus on treatment and prevention in terms of the social consequences of substance uses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_abuse

"Substance abuse" like "domestic violence" holds a very negative connotation. What term would be more appropriate in describing historical use of a substance that has had an impact on one's ability to function that would be more politically correct? (Honest question. Seriously.)

Last edited by Tayken; 08-19-2012 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
i never ever claimed i was recovered.....recovering.
What defines the difference though between "recovered" (12 years of no negative effect from use) versus "recovering". From my perspective "recovering" would mean that there is a threat that you could revert to a previous status. I am of the personal opinion that after 12 years of no major incidents of use which impacts your ability to function in society... You have recovered... When does the process of "recovering" end? Never?

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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
my definition of abuse vs use would be if a substance is used frequently to the point that it causes problems in a persons life.
I wouldn't disagree with the differentiation between "use and abuse" in that context at all. Thank-you for clarifying. In fact, I would even go to a more radical argument that if someone demonstrates that after 12 years of non-abuse that they have "recovered".

Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
the difference between a beer or two on a friday night or a case a day as a rough example. or another context a cup of coffee in the morning or 8 trips to timmies every day
Agreed. Now, is the abuse the use of the substance in question (say the case of beer in your example) or the potential self-abuse it has on the person who is abusing the use of the substance in question?

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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
to me there is no negative connotations in substance abuse it is purly descriptive
In legal context and before the court "recovering alcoholic" and "recovered alcoholic" may have an impact on a judge and potentially for medical treatment as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
but it appears theres something negative with it to you could you explain why
Ontologies in medical terms such as "substance abuse" are not easily understood by the general population... Including lawyers and judges. That is why I always propose that better ontological definitions for "domestic violence" (intimate partner abuse) need to be developed that are easier to understand, predict and diagnose...
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
you also didnt explain why you refer to pot as a narcotic...strange you are usually very thorough.
"Pot" is a recognized narcotic just as Oxycontin is as well when used for the wrong context. I don't dispute there are therapeutic uses for "pot" just as there are for Oxycontin.

If someone has formed an addiction to Oxycotin as a result of cancer treatments required the drug for valid pain management it still isn't illegal in that context. Often, in many situations of pain management, it is easier to treat the addiction later once the problem which creates the pain has been treated and in many cases the pain cannot be treated without the use of Oxycotin.

A patient subjected to intense pain is often more irrational than that of a patient addicted to a narcotic substance.

If someone goes out and seeks out Oxycotin for "recreational use" without clinical involvement it is what makes it illegal. In fact I strongly support the use of "pot" for more therapeutic usage and the transformation of it into a pharmaceutical that should be managed through dispensaries (pharmacies) for medical use.

Furthermore, I am using narcotic from an ontological perspective as a pharmaceutical. Thanks to our friends down south (US) they have clouded the proper use of this pharmaceutical terminology.

See: Controlled Drugs and Substances Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not a "prohibitionist". If "pot" is recreational then we need to manage the sale and distribution of it just like alcohol. In fact, we should do this so it can be taxed appropriately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
it has been my experience that judges are fairly well versed in the effects and treatments of alcohol i am sure a canlii search would show that.
Not in Family Law. The challenge is that the label when use and projected the wrong way can have an impact on custody and access many times. Furthermore, the more damaging use of the allegation is in settlement when negative advocate solicitors use the allegations to leverage control on the other party because of their fears.

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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
as far as the difference between recovered and recovering i wont do any searching but will refer to a recent visit i had at the local jail where i met with a longtime friend who thought he was recovered. his explaination was i thought i was ok.
Based on my own opinions... Again, which are my own, I would consider you a "recovered" person in those matters. You have just as much opportunity as someone with no past history of alcohol abuse to abuse alcohol in my opinion. Just because you had a past history (12 years ago!) doesn't make you any more likely to form an addiction. Again, radical thought and personal opinion.

In fact, if you received treatment and due to your own personal experience and the strong stance you take on things... You may in be even less likely than someone else to ever abuse alcohol as you truly know the consequences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
i do some volunteer work that takes me into our jails and i have met with many people who failed to see the difference between recovered and recovering
Add this to the list of reasons why I am of the opinion that you are "recovered" and not just "recovering". Again, my personal opinion and you are the best judge of what you are.

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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
you may be able to make an arguement either way but i will stick with recovering for me it works ...
So long as it works for you and that is what is most important. Your past history is of little relevance in my opinion. How someone acts in the current moment is more important than their past history. Everyone has the opportunity to change. You demonstrate this in your current life and by donating your time to help others.

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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
and like someone used to tell me if it aint broke dont fix it....
Always a good thing to focus on.

Last edited by Tayken; 08-19-2012 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:09 PM
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i stand corrected on the classification of pot as a narcotic i must admit i found it a bit of a surprise.
You weren't wrong. We were just using the term in two different contexts that is all.

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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
as for the alcoholic and family court i included that fact in my affadavit without hesitation and consider it a positive.
Excellent advice for everyone reading this forum to consider when faced with going before the court. Honesty first is always the best policy and full disclosure of anything that could be used against you. Congratulations for doing the right thing and addressing it up front so it doesn't become a point of confusion and complexity in your matters.

Also, good choice in lawyers I would say too. The best way you could have approached the subject matter. Many people avoid this kind of disclosure thinking it will distroy their case.

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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
my lawyer agreed with me on this and it has not caused my any concern thus far so i would disagree that judges dont have an understanding of drugs such as alcohol and the roles it plays.
Ah, but, you did the right thing and disclosed the information. Had you not and avoided the topic or denied it... Then you would see a different perspective of the court. You did the right thing and ultimately the courts reflected it.

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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
The medical world is a mixed bag on what defines alcohol addiction. It could be chemical dependency, psychological and a pile of other factors. Based on your own statements... Neither seems to have a grip on you hence my comments.

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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
as far as legalization goes i am indifferent as i am not a user but i do have some concerns about my children becoming criminalized for some youthfull experimentation
A matter that needs to be addressed. They have turned the whole matter into a grey area which could turn black in the eyes of the uneducated in the matter. (I agree with you.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
my understanding that some of the compounds found in pot may be potentially very useful in how they effect brain chemistry and i believe there is a company founded by moses znimmer that is heavily involved in reshearch to that effect
No dispute from me on the value of "pot" as a medical aid. There is more than enough research to support the decriminalization and for it to be better prescribed and prescribed. But, if it is going to become recreational (like alcohol) a lot has to be put in place first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
which brings me back to how pot effects memory and if the changes by single use are substantial how does it factor into the earlier posted studies?
In my opinion (personal) based on my understanding of the evidence based medicine is that the memory impacts are on temporary memory and judgement. From my personal understanding it would take a considerable amount and long-term exposure and use to have a long term impact. Depending of the method of usage and what I have read cancer would be a larger health concern if you tried to smoke enough to damage long term memory...

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Originally Posted by slughead10 View Post
sorry to get so far off topic but sometimes its easy to get diverted.
I have no issue as the discussion of memory and the impact of narcotics is very similar. There are posters who often come here claiming that the other parent has substance abuse problems. Some come here with known substance usage problems and openly admit to the impact it has on their judgement and ability to function (these people need to take this for medical purposes).

This is why I constantly harp on the opinion that the system of FAMILY LAW and the MEDICAL SYSTEM need better integration. Through better integration there can be better understanding and better outcomes for families.

Rather than affidavits about "heavy drug users" and other irrelivant hearsay. I am of the personal opinion that in highly conflicted matrimonial disputes with allegations of substance abuse, mental illness, etc... Require the medical system as the main driver to the problem and not the justice system. The family has a problem and the courts are not competent enough to help the family (my opinion).

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:14 PM
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I would like to see both of you bring this home to the topic of divorce and family law

FN
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:21 PM
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I would like to see both of you bring this home to the topic of divorce and family law

FN
FreeNow, how does this conversation not meet your expectations in relation to the topic of "divorce and family law".

The original discussion was prefaced on the concept of false memories and the challenges of "hearsay" before the courts and the various psychological impacts depending on "memory" (read: hearsay) have before the court when determining a judgement on the balance of probabilities.

The conversation then went into the impact that narcotic substances have on memory and the use of one's past interactions with controlled substances before the courts. Slughhead10 actually gave a very useful accounting of honesty first in the matter of disclosing a past history of substance abuse and his own personal (and wise) decision on to properly disclose it and the related impact (or the fact it had none) on his matters before the court.

So it is hard to determine what you are requesting at this time.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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