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Domestic Violence Dealing with abuse and violence. Getting support and help.

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Old 07-15-2013, 04:33 AM
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Default Lundy Bancroft: New Religion?

Hi All,

For all those reading Lundy Bancroft's books on "domestic violence" I provide the following link for you to consider:

Posted: FRIDAY, MARCH 25, 2011
Posted by: Lundy Bancroft
Title: "A New Spiritual Community"

Transition To a New World: A New Spiritual Community

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundy Bancroft
I have decided to found a new spiritual community and spiritual movement, which I am calling Nature's Temple. I call the belief system Nature Mysticism. I have included the principles (there are quite a few) below. I hope you enjoy reading them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundy Bancroft
1) The human being is an animal. We are no more different from other animals than they are from each other. We are not a race apart. All the creatures of the earth are our sisters and brothers.
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundy Bancroft
4) The pursuit of ecstasy is inseparable from the pursuit of love. We strive to make our hearts ever more open to the giving and receiving of love.
Suffice to say, it is a very odd posting as well as the others contained on his publicly accessible blogs.

One does have to question what influence this list and beliefs attached to it regarding; humans are "animals" has influences Mr. Bancroft's "theory" of "domestic violence".

Putting this list into perspective (and his other blog postings) is quite an interesting read anyone should do prior to reading/accepting Mr. Bancroft's "theory" of domestic violence. It is quite concerning in my opinion and does shed some light some light on the foundations of Mr. Bancroft's "theory" of "domestic violence"... and the lack of apparent research to support it other than personal opinion he expresses.

I hypothesize that that his "theory" on domestic violence may possibly be driven by his personal religious/spiritual desire to "found a new spiritual community and spiritual movement".

Thoughts on this matter and additional eyes on the materials posted to Mr. Bancroft's various blogs and postings is always encouraged.

It is unfortunate that many "domestic violence" shelters in Canada recommend his materials and even provide it on intake to their clients. Much needed reform to the conduct of these "shelters" is still needed in my opinion to insure people are receiving sound and supported advice... Not one driven by a possibly a single individual's questionable religious/personal belief.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 07-15-2013, 06:11 AM
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Continuing... I found this posting rather "interesting" from Mr. Bancroft:

Transition To a New World

My emphasis added:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundy Bancroft
Children are prisoners. We are holding them in cells through half of their days, 180 out of 365 each year. During these days they are permitted to be outdoors for 40 or 50 minutes total (“recess”, though we might just as well call it “yard”) to see the sky, feel the breeze, watch leaves shimmering on a maple tree.

Then, to further enslave them, we give them additional work that they have to do at home at night. Some parents require children to complete their homework before they can play, so whatever might have been left of the light of day is further lost. We pride ourselves on being past the days of child labor, but we’ve only shortened the work week a little bit.
This reads to me to be similar to the radical ideas that some parents have regarding the rather odd and evolving concept of "Unschooling".

I find it difficult to find any redeeming quality in this posting from the author of "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds Of Angry and Controlling Men", Lundy Bancroft.

One would have to question if a parent who is seeking an order from the court for a child to attend regular school is:
  • imprisoning
  • holding them in cells
  • enslaving
  • indoctrinating
  • divorced from nature and drowning in plastic possessions
  • incarcerating
  • taking them away from the Mother that they have been kidnapped away from
  • locking them away from our beloved world

Suffice to say, I find this position that Mr. Bancroft has taken rather odd and extreme in nature. It does possibly shed some light on his personal opinions and what motivated many of the under referenced "opinions" in his books about "domestic violence".

Again, I recommend those who rely upon the materials of Mr. Bancroft to fully explore his writings. They are quite revealing to say the least.

Good Luck!
Tayken
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Lundy Bancroft
"Children are prisoners. We are holding them in cells through half of their days, 180 out of 365 each year. During these days they are permitted to be outdoors for 40 or 50 minutes total (“recess”, though we might just as well call it “yard”) to see the sky, feel the breeze, watch leaves shimmering on a maple tree."

Strange and overly dramatic concept ... If children where permitted to do whatever they wanted with their time (like young animals) they would not spend it admiring maple trees, feeling the breeze nor looking at the cloud formations in the sky - they would be sitting on their A$$ playing the latest video game.

Lundy Bancroft is well on his way to becoming the next Jim Jones ... Kool-aid anyone?
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:21 AM
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Children are prisoners? What the heck is this? Some things are not negotiable and dictatorial in life for both adults and children, otherwise children would never go to school, wash theis hands, eat broccoli and I can go and and on and on.

For the adults, freedom is a recognition of the need. Children cannot do that for the obvious reasons.

Quote:
The human being is an animal. We are no more different from other animals than they are frmo each other. We are not a race apart. All the creatures of the earth are our sisters and brothers
WOW!

I didn't read his whole writing but looks like this guy doesn't understand the major difference between the humans and animals (we evern have our own "group" name).

Humans are really unique creatures on our planet. There is a fundamental difference between human beings and animals: language, ability to abstract thought to name a couple.

As per Immanuel Kant: "No matter how much animals train their capacities, they will never attain similar contsciousness as humans, since it would require a new kind of capacity".

Yes, we are animals, but a we are a totally different animal...so to speak.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:22 AM
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I haven't read Bancroft's books on domestic violence but I just read the link you posted and to me, its not that revolutionary.

Example:

Quote:
17) Work is inherently a joyful activity. It does not need to be avoided except when it takes up too much of our lives. Work only becomes drudgery under hierarchy: when it is controlled by others (bosses) and we lose our say, when we are isolated (having to work far away from the people we love, without community), or when it is unnatural (having to work indoors under artificial light, having to do work that harms the earth or its denizens, having to do work that does not enhance life).
I would agree with this wholeheartedly, for instance. Days I spend working in the yard..even if I get sore to the point of barely being able to move the next day...never feel like work to me. Its a joy...especially if I get to do it with my partner.

While the verbage used may be a little "hippy extreme"...there's no doubt that humans have strayed a bit too far away from nature for their own well-being.

As for this:

Quote:
Children are prisoners. We are holding them in cells through half of their days, 180 out of 365 each year. During these days they are permitted to be outdoors for 40 or 50 minutes total (“recess”, though we might just as well call it “yard”) to see the sky, feel the breeze, watch leaves shimmering on a maple tree.

Then, to further enslave them, we give them additional work that they have to do at home at night. Some parents require children to complete their homework before they can play, so whatever might have been left of the light of day is further lost. We pride ourselves on being past the days of child labor, but we’ve only shortened the work week a little bit.



Again, the language is extreme but its not that far from truth. I had a lot of trouble with school, not due to the content...I did extremely well...but because of the structure. I HATED the way school was structed, still do. Its confining...it often lacks real life examples...and in reality, kids learn better with a hands-on, more interactive approach. I don't think it would be a bad idea to explore to education methods. And they've done studies on homework and its got a lot of negatives.

I've often lamented the fact that my kids haven't spent nearly as much time outdoors as I did as a child. I don't think there's anything wrong with suggesting that kids could learn in an outdoor environment. It would definitely help with science and nature curriculum.

While I think Lundy's Bancroft's language is extreme...the points aren't invalid...simply out-of-the-box.

To suggest that human beings are basically "animals" who've strayed too far away from their environment and nature for their own good is absolutely true. And to suggest that spirituality can be connected with nature isn't a new concept at all. All early religions were far more in line with the natural world.

You could argue that the author's approach to fix it is a little overdone but the premise is valid, in my opinion.
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuinghappiness View Post
I HATED the way school was structed, still do. Its confining...it often lacks real life examples...and in reality, kids learn better with a hands-on, more interactive approach. I don't think it would be a bad idea to explore to education methods. And they've done studies on homework and its got a lot of negatives.
I agree, the entire school system needs a major overhaul as it fails to engage the brightest students and ignores those with special needs.

Bill Gates has the right attitude:

College-Ready Education - Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:00 PM
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I'd never heard of him before; I clicked through a few of his blogs and postings and my unprofessional opinion is that he is a nutbar. Lots of unwarranted generalizations about "women" (all women are like this? all the time?) wrapped in feel-good platitudes ("it's okay to cry"), seasoned with pie-in-the-sky pronouncements about the way the world ought to be (school, nature, religion, work ...). He knows everything and he is never wrong.

Do domestic violence shelters really hand out his materials? I can see why, perhaps because he validates women's experience of abuse and has inspirational things to say, but really, there are other authors who can help people with surviving and moving beyond domestic violence without being so cult-like.
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:57 PM
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Interesting points from all so far...

It would be interesting to compair the "cult-like" and "guru" observations to a Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument (OPCA) litigant.

Meads v. Meads, 2012 ABQB 571 (CanLII)
Date: 2012-09-18
Docket: 4803 155609
URL: CanLII - 2012 ABQB 571 (CanLII)
Citation: Meads v. Meads, 2012 ABQB 571 (CanLII)

Quote:
[4] OPCA litigants do not express any stereotypic beliefs other than a general rejection of court and state authority; nor do they fall into any common social or professional association. Arguments and claims of this nature emerge in all kinds of legal proceedings and all levels of Courts and tribunals. This group is unified by:

1. a characteristic set of strategies (somewhat different by group) that they employ,

2. specific but irrelevant formalities and language which they appear to believe are (or portray as) significant, and

3. the commercial sources from which their ideas and materials originate.
general rejection of court and state authority

Rejection of the education system, angry postings about the bias of the courts against his followers as demonstrated by:

Transition To a New World: Uprisings and Daily Resistance Go Hand in Hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundy Bancroft
But the rulers of this country were able to capitalize on the World Trade Center demolition to brazenly intimidate the leftwing and make visible resistance much riskier and more difficult.
Is this to suggest that the WTC terror attack was really a "demolition" project? Is this part of the conspiracy theory that the likes of Jessie "The Body" Ventura tout as "fact"?

School (a government sanctioned institute) is prison:

Transition To a New World: Indoor School Is Prison for Kids

Constantly seeking "the truth". Similar to OACP litigants... The elusive "truth"... (To quote Mossip...)

Healing and Hope: THE TRUTH COMES OUT IN ANN M.'s CASE

Complaints regarding the conduct of the judiciary in matters:

Healing and Hope: The Document the Judge Won't Allow Into Evidence

Anything to deal with the Wendy G. parental abduction case on Mr. Bancroft's blog. (You can find all the news articles on the parental abduction matter easily on the internet for more details of what actually happened.)

Healing and Hope: Judge Hulsing Jails Wendi G.!

Including allegations of cover ups by "everyone" in that matter:

Healing and Hope: THE WENDI G. CASE: EVERYBODY SCRAMBLES TO COVER UP

Allegations that the children in that matter are "prisoners":

Healing and Hope: ARE WENDI G.'S CHILDREN PRISONERS? - PART I

It all seems like point #1 - an attempt to deploy some sort of public distortion campaign and paint the situation in a different light. Almost "guru-ish" in nature in my opinion.

To point #2 a reviewer of Mr. Bancroft's books on Amazon may have identified the "irrelevant formalities and language which they (he) appears to believe are (or portray as) significant":

Amazon.com: Forever Young's review of Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of ...

Quote:
There IS a "guideline" put forth by the author early on that you REALLY need to pay close attention to. He basically says he's using "shorthand" by using words like "the abuser" to apply to a wide range of personality types. This shorthand puts a HUGE burden on the reader to distinguish between a wide spectrum of abuse. The use of "shorthand" is a cop-out on the author's part and nothing more than an excuse for bad writing.
With regard to point #3... Bancroft attempts in his writing to cite clinical reference possibly as "commercial sources" to the "truth" of his belief structure on "domestic violence".

The "Phenominon of a Guru" in OACP Litigation:

Quote:
[61] This part of the Reasons is a detailed review of the OPCA community, its membership, organization, and known history. It sets out the Court’s understanding of persons who affiliate with OPCA concepts, what traits they do and do not share, and how they organize themselves.

[62] This community has “guru” leader, and follower / customer, cohorts. Groups of persons who have similar beliefs join together into “movements”. Known gurus and movements are identified and described.

...

[79] Caselaw that relates to Gurus, reviewed below, explains how gurus present these ideas in seminars, books, websites, and instructional DVDs and other recordings. They provide pre‑prepared documents, which sometimes are government forms, and instruct how to fill in the necessary information that then produces the desired effects. Gurus write scripts to follow in court. Some will attempt to act as your representative, and argue your case.

...

[80] When gurus do appear in court their schemes uniformly fail, which is why most leave court appearances to their customers. That explains why it is not unusual to find that an OPCA litigant cannot even explain their own materials. They did not write them. They do not (fully) understand them. OPCA litigants appear, engage in a court drama that is more akin to a magic spell ritual than an actual legal proceeding, and wait to see if the court is entranced and compliant. If not, the litigant returns home to scrutinize at what point the wrong incantation was uttered, an incorrectly prepared artifact waved or submitted.
See above links as possible demonstrations of the OACP theories applied in this context... Mr. Bancroft's "followers" to his ideals often speak of "the truth"... Even wanting the children in a custody and access matter to testify and writing that the truth was more important than the children's best interests. It is a very disturbing posting to read in my personal opinion.

Good Luck!
Tayken

Last edited by Tayken; 07-15-2013 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 07-15-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stripes View Post
Do domestic violence shelters really hand out his materials? I can see why, perhaps because he validates women's experience of abuse and has inspirational things to say, but really, there are other authors who can help people with surviving and moving beyond domestic violence without being so cult-like.
Despite Tayken's opinion on how shelters operate and the lack of education of their workers, I do not think that any of the Ontario shelters are using Brancroff's materials. I would challenge him to prove it.

I worked in a shelter for 6 years as a front line crisis intervention advocate in the Niagara Region. Now this was about 10 years ago but I never even heard of this guy.

Shelters use a variety of educational materials but since they are partially funded by the government, they have responsibilities too. If shelters were handing out this type of material, it would have been known by now.

The shelter I worked in developed their own counselling program in house using an educational model of intervention. Our Executive Director and Program Manager were both women of intelligence and Master Degrees. The work they do there is amazing.

(And yes, in case anyone is wondering, I have a Social Service Worker and an Early Childhood Education diploma.)

Last edited by SadAndTired; 07-15-2013 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:16 PM
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Hi All,

If anyone doubts that this material is provided by domestic violence workers at shelters one only needs to call the intake line and ask them for book recommendations to recommend to a friend. It is simple, fast and easy to check yourself. I do recommend that you call a few shelters to get a better sample then relying upon just one call. It really depends on the intake worker who answers the call.

In fact, Google.ca returns this result to a Canadian Shelter resource's "recommended reading" which includes Mr. Bancroft's book:

http://www.changingways.on.ca/index....126&Itemid=152

Which is apparently an Ontario organization that attest to:

Quote:
Changing Ways supports men to stop their abusive behaviour in their relationships, and challenges them to take an active role in preventing woman abuse. The agency is a model in the larger community, working in solidarity with others who are committed to ending violence against women.

The agency’s philosophy is that sexism is inherent in the power imbalance that contributes to violence against women. Gender systems continue to privilege and enable men to exercise control over women in their primary relationships. Changing Ways is committed, on all levels, to a feminist model in an effort to eradicate woman abuse, and to changing the value systems that perpetuate inequality.
If necessary, I can produce more easy to find results from Google.ca... But, in the age of internet searching it doesn't take more than a monkey bashing rocks into keyboards to find the evidence in support of the facts as stated.

Good Luck!
Tayken

Last edited by Tayken; 07-15-2013 at 04:39 PM.
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