She has agreed to mediation

[MAC-JMJ]

Hi all,

I received an e-mail confirmation that my ex (CL) spouse has agreed to mediation, so I have begun writing up my proposal. I should be hearing by the mediator office by tomorrow (in Ontario) and I am just looking to confirm a few things as I have searched this site and seen that there are some mixed opinions or some of the responses are from 2006, so I want to be sure they are updated. Thanks again for all your help with this.

• Actual time of living together CL is approx 6-6.5 years, is this considered a long period of time? We are both 35 years old.
• When I read about division of pension are we talking CPP, my work pension (only I contributed) or both? Is she entitled to this? Again 6 years worth would be a small amount?
• Spousal Support would be .5 for every year we are together, so again it may be easier to agree on a lump sum payment for this, good option? Can I negotiate amount if lump sum?
• Child Support for 3 children, I want to give a lump sum payment also, is this a good idea?
• She wasn't legally divorced from her previous spouse until March of 2009, does this change anything with her legal entitlement? I have seen both yes and no.
• I want joint custody for sure but not sure if I can swing the shared custody until I financially recover. Can I revisit this about a year from now?

My whole intention her is to keep us out of court and expensive lawyers and I am hoping some people with mediation experience can help me understand what I will be dealing with here.

Our joint home is in both of our names and I will propose that we sell and use equity to pay out most of our debt. I will leave her with X dollars from home but will indicate that this is part of my lump sum payment for CS. Then after we pay out debts I will get a loan and pay her the rest of the CS up front as this will help her with up front costs and allow her to get things for the kids right away when needed. I am also prepared to leave her with 95% of all items in the home and will ask to waive SS & Pension (if 6 years is considered a relavent short amount of time together) but may change this if not agreed too. I will ask for joint custody but not sure about the shared custody agreement yet as I will not have a home with 3 bedrooms and will need to save for a year or so. Probably only be able to afford a one bedroom until I am back on my feet from this but will welcome all advice on this matter.

Let me know as well if I am missing anything here to be discussed.

Oh I should add that she is able to gain employment back at her previous work (still on payroll) making more $$ than before (which is also why I want to say no to pension & SS). Two of our three kids are in school and the third is almost three years old. She has a forth child from her previous marriage and gets paid monthly support for him as per guidelines.

Thanks all.

[NBDad]

Actual time of living together CL is approx 6-6.5 years, is this considered a long period of time? We are both 35 years old.

Usually 7 years is considered a "long-ish" marriage. You're under the standard cutoff.

When I read about division of pension are we talking CPP, my work pension (only I contributed) or both? Is she entitled to this? Again 6 years worth would be a small amount?

Depends on the laws in your province. *IF* she is able to lay claim on them it'd be against the increase in value for the duration of the relationship, not the entire thing. (make sure you include the tax costs of "cashing out" as debt on your financials if that road is taken.

Spousal Support would be .5 for every year we are together, so again it may be easier to agree on a lump sum payment for this, good option? Can I negotiate amount if lump sum?

1. She has to prove entitlement, Spousal isn't an automatic given. Take your after tax income, her after tax income (if she is not current employed, what is she capable of making? She'd have to be imputed full time hours@ min wage at a bare minimum). Now, throw in child support paid/received....now answer this...is her # 45% or higher of your #? If the answer is YES, then ballpark napkin math from some guy on the internet tells you she doesn't qualify.

2. I always recommend against lump sum, for the following reason: monthly spousal support payments are a TAX DEDUCTION for you IF CS is also current. Lump sum payments ARE NOT.

Child Support for 3 children, I want to give a lump sum payment also, is this a good idea?

NO. It's a horrible idea. For one, you never know what the future holds, so you want something solid and binding both for now, and to account for future possibilities. Also, if she burns through it and wants to be vindictive, she can go to court and simply get you put on the hook for the monthly amounts at any time. Instead, take the lump sum, put it into a trust and pay out the table (or offset table depending on custody situation) each month.

She wasn't legally divorced from her previous spouse until March of 2009, does this change anything with her legal entitlement? I have seen both yes and no.

The second you two were living together for 1 year, OR had a common child between you...you are considered common law, regardless of her existing status. Depending on how amicable things are, it's probably not worth worrying about.

I want joint custody for sure but not sure if I can swing the shared custody until I financially recover. Can I revisit this about a year from now?

You can visit custody any time you can prove a material change in circumstance, but unless there is something major going on, you potentially face a years long uphill battle to get more time. Better to find a way to make it work NOW, then kick yourself in the ass down the road. Joint Legal Custody is what you should shoot for, then you need to decide on the physical custody aspect...how much time can you do? How much do you want to do? etc. Do it NOW and save yourself the possible pitfalls and headaches down the road.

[QuebecGuy]

[quote=NBDad;60502]Usually 7 years is considered a "long-ish" marriage. You're under the standard cutoff.


So you mean 6 or 7 years is the default rule of thump for the court to recognize as awarding Spousal support? How about a 4~5 year common-law relationship with kids?

[NBDad]

It's "a" factor...not the only one. Mainly used to determine whether they lean more towards 6 months per year of the relationship, or a 1:1 ratio.

She has to prove need, it's not automatic. If she's able to return to work and make sufficient money to bring her within 45% of him, then she won't qualify.

[MAC-JMJ]

Originally Posted by NBDad

It's "a" factor...not the only one. Mainly used to determine whether they lean more towards 6 months per year of the relationship, or a 1:1 ratio.

She has to prove need, it's not automatic. If she's able to return to work and make sufficient money to bring her within 45% of him, then she won't qualify.

Is it true CTC + Support all get added into the calculation? If so, then it is my after tax income compared to her after tax income and if hers is 45% or more of mine than it could be waived?

[NBDad]

To get a truly accurate picture you need to plug all the financial crap into "divorcemate"....it's a software suite used in this kind of calculation.

But yeah, you have the gist of it.

Your NDI (basically your after tax income according to your tax return) - child support = your number

HER NDI + child support = her number. If her number is >=45% of your number then spousal support = 0

Not sure if CCTB/UCCB are included or not. There are other things that also can come into play as well, but that's a very rough quick and dirty way of figuring out whether you need to talk to a lawyer for the hard numbers or not.

[billm]

Originally Posted by NBDad

...
But yeah, you have the gist of it.

Your NDI (basically your after tax income according to your tax return) - child support = your number

HER NDI + child support = her number. If her number is >=45% of your number then spousal support = 0

...

No this is wrong.

Do you really think if your spouse has about HALF the money that you do, that means that no spousal support would be ordered? I wish!

I'm getting tired of correcting this!

[dave9911]

Originally Posted by billm

No this is wrong.

Do you really think if your spouse has about HALF the money that you do, that means that no spousal support would be ordered? I wish!

I'm getting tired of correcting this!

I wish too... mine has been getting 60% of NDI because I was stupid and thought overpaying SS was being the "nice guy" and would improve her mindset. She's refused to coop with separation agreement so been paying tax on SS, for over 2 years now.

Finally gave her 2 months warning I was 'lowering' spousal to 1200$ a month so that she gets "only" 54% of my take-home completely tax/deduction FREE (she works full-time as reno consultant but claims to make 4000$ annually, her discretionary spending habits don't at ALL jive and nothings imputed as yet). She had the affair and enjoys the bf's income too.

She's in our 5 bedroom waterfront spread, I live in a decrepit 800 sq ft bungalow... I make 6 figures in a highly regarded profession but live off a credit line, $40000 in debt due legal fees and CS/SS I can't afford with the fees (2 of 3 kids with me 50% so I'm paying full table CS). Am out of financing options.

Due her perception of my 'selfishness', advised me she's filing a motion for support. Brilliant.. give lawyers all our cash on top of it all. I doubt a judge will see it in her favor and frankly think I've been stupid to pay spousal for 2 years with zero agreement and no cooperation. Been losing $500+ a month to RevCan paying tax on spousal. Unrecoverable beyond the past year.

No $$ left now for lawyers to fight this so totally stuck.. Lawyers have done nothing but fill out forms, write letters and ignore me. And bill me. ZERO advice or strategy. So left to represent myself I guess and take the court crap-shoot.

Cue the violins I know... done whining, but just an example that simplistic perceptions are way off..

[billm]

dave9911 - well, you can represent yourself.

Seems to me you should decide what is legally your obligation (CS should be easy, SS maybe a little tricky), and just pay that. If she takes you to court, you can then show that you are being reasonable.

[NBDad]

Do you really think if your spouse has about HALF the money that you do, that means that no spousal support would be ordered? I wish!

That's one of the standard checks in place to determine spousal. If you agree to it otherwise and don't fight it, then yeah, you can get hit with more.

What I posted was the de facto legal standard that's used to determine eligibility. It's ONE point..others include things like the length of marriage, and whether one side gave up components of their career for the other.

The courts will not intervene on things you don't ASK for specifically.